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Messages and Concerns

BoosteyaBoosteya Posts: 346Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
edited January 2017 in North of Thera
Message #2157       Sent by [redacted]
2017/1/23/23:06 Yeah, I feel like pressured to do shit when i'm hardly around. So I just like wake up and work.

Message #2159       Sent by [redacted]
2017/1/23/23:08 Hrm maybe I should then. Like, this feels like chores ya know? Do this, do that. Get this level, read this, make a poster. Like dude, I just wanna play and have fun. Not petty chore work. We're not all into gaining social rank.

Message #2166       Sent by [redacted]
2017/1/23/23:10 //I'm not sure how making people do a bunch of trivial tasks will help keep anyone interested though.


Message #2179       Sent by [redacted]
2017/1/23/23:17 //the chore stuff? It's retarded. We had them in all guilds* but usually once you attain guild rank 3 you're good. You can progress if you wish to attain leadership positions.

Message #2184       Sent by [redacted]
2017/1/23/23:23 //Yeah? It's kind of dumb if you ask me. While I get it's useful to help novices, beyond a point it becomes work. People play games to not work.. generally.

Message #2186       Sent by [redacted]
2017/1/23/23:25 //It's kind of a trend I've noticed a bit here at least. It's almost like most substance isn't there, so it's compensated with mindless work. LIke there's conflict, but it's very generic.

Message #2187       Sent by [redacted]
2017/1/23/23:26 Like between targ and mhaldor. I evil, you good.. we fight. That kind of generic conflict. Whereas personal grievences and clan wars are rare. I'd love to see more of that. Like a faction rise out of nowhere and wage war against another with some agenda that's not strictly "You are evil, I must destroy you."

Message #2189       Sent by [redacted]
2017/1/23/23:28 Like control of an area or land. Taxing people who pass through it, while it may be dickish it's viable and roleplay. Opens the door for another clan to rise up fighting off the marauders. Maybe i'm alone in thinking that sort of thing is fun.


These messages were sent to me as part of a longer conversation, and... while I don't feel it's my place to reveal the person who sent them, I do encourage this person to reveal themself, and will acknowledge if/when that happens. I'm posting them here because I think there are some points made that are worth discussing. The only edits I made were to redact the name and add an asterisk for a footnote. Speaking of which:

*They were talking about Lusternian ones.
Miin-aan baash kimini-sij-i-gan bitooyin sij-i-gan-i bukwayszhiigan = blueberry π
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Comments

  • BoosteyaBoosteya Posts: 346Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Before anyone else mentions it:

    2017/1/23/23:08 Hrm maybe I should then.

    I asked them to talk to someone who might could help with this stuff.
    Miin-aan baash kimini-sij-i-gan bitooyin sij-i-gan-i bukwayszhiigan = blueberry π
  • OxyOxy Posts: 3Member
    I honestly completely feel this.

    I've played as a rogue for the longest time, and found it incredibly difficult to find a character I enjoyed playing long enough to keep them as my "main".

    Oxy was one of the first characters I made (thus how old she is yet how weak, given I've made a couple of characters in the time in-between to try out different classes and the such), and after 80 IG years of experiencing Achaea I can't say I'm fond of any of the organizations presently available.

    Beyond how good the writing for major conflict may or may not be, making advancement in cities and houses be all about chores is increeedibly discouraging. I completely agree that coming home from work or school to do more tasks has always been the weakest aspect of Achaean RP. 

    I feel like most large conflicts are on the hands of the Divine. And that's honestly not fun. It doesn't help that most Divine still around are... Mostly assholes, honestly. No big objectives are player-driven, they're all handed on silver platters and give little to no wiggle room. Always railroaded.

    I feel like most organizations have the same objective. We're correct, they're wrong. Kill them. This is... Incredibly boring to anyone who wants to have a character with the smallest bit of empathy for others.

    I miss Divine like Lady Selene, whose Order was unique and full of incredible RP opportunities that showed the Divine as more than capricious warlords.

    I feel like there's lots of wasted potential, and I wanted to make this post as constructive and least-whiny as possible, but I might've failed colossally. I'd be more than open to try and discuss ways to fix this, or otherwise be proven wrong on some of the things I said that might be more personal. I feel like many that agree with Boosteya('s friend) would agree with some of this, though.
    BoosteyaAsmodronPrythe
  • VesiosVesios Posts: 243Member ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    lot of stuff here so I'll give my uninformed opinions on them separately

    Regarding guilds/houses/chores/monotony:

    100% agree with anon here, though this discussion is one that's been touched on many, many times here on the forums. Issue is multifaceted imo, on one hand you kinda need those checklists to help the genuine newbies who're probably completely lost, stumbling around the MUD. They need that guiding hand and those scrolls to give them a sense of direction until they get their feet on the ground and figure things out. On the other hand it's like you have a second job and all of your bosses know each other and if you don't follow things word for word, good luck to you see ya whenever, etc.

    This is part of the reason the old guilds and houses were overhauled and redone from scratch.

    Being completely honest here, while there are reasons my character ICly hasn't joined a house since I came back, on an OOC level I haven't joined a house purely because I absolutely do not want to do the novice program again, period, end of discussion. Thankfully, the rules regarding house membership in Eleusis are lax enough that I can get away with staying houseless.

    Recently I've come of the opinion that there's nothing wrong with recommending the grindy parts/homework as a form of generalized house guidelines, but they should stay just that - recommended guidelines. They shouldn't be requirements. House rules should be lax enough and allow enough leeway for those obvious alts (or genuine novices who have picked up on things quick enough) to advance through the novice program via alternative means. Stuff like intensive roleplay, rituals, combat theory for their class if it's a combat house, stuff like that. You can use the checklist guidelines as a "here's some stuff to look over given your current level and strength" fact sheet, instead of what existed prior: you need to do all of these things and write these three essays and fight this many people and then prepare for a three hour interview to test whether you truly know this stuff, etc. etc.

    I think the hellish novice programs may have had/still has an effect on retention rates, now that I think about it.

    Regarding combat:

    I agree to a point. I don't think most conflicts are Divine-inspired and I do think PKers are largely responsible for organizing their own fights and raids/defenses. Are the conflicts in the names of the Divine? I mean, probably, yeah, in most cases. Shouting the name of your god to the high heavens as you cut down the blasphemous infidels kinda comes with the whole "ultra-violent religious zealots" territory, which five of the six cities almost certainly qualify as.

    I do think there may be a bit too much mindless slaughter and not enough preaching/attempting to convince the other side, though. I know there's been some of that on the public news section recently and I love it, but more is always better given how big an influence combat currently has in Achaea's geopolitics. I'd like to see more face-to-face challenges of theology and beliefs, especially before or after combat. During would be even better but that'd be sorta hard for obvious reasons. The lack of said discussion may be why anon feels Achaean conflict is so generic. I will say that all the factions (some more than others) are quite deep and complex when it comes to their various beliefs and views. The issue is, again, the heavy stuff is rarely publicized out in the open and is mostly contained nowadays to news boards. Less talking, more bashing of skulls, etc. And when those deep talks do happen you won't really see the parties going around proclaiming "Hey guys, soandso and I just had a REALLY INTERESTING conversation on EVIL vs GOOD!", etc.

    There are also personal vendettas that occur on the regular, but they stay just that: personal; this stuff is usually part of a character's personal story arc or whatever and are rarely publicized unless the metaphorical shit hits the metaphorical fan and multiple third parties get involved on either side. I do admit I've rarely heard of/seen inter-clan conflict, though, mostly because family members usually stay within their own bubbles (i.e. clt chat) and talk sass when nobody else can hear them. ;)

    So on the whole, yeah, there's always some good and some bad. Like others have always said, your experiences within the game will mostly stem from how well you can weed out the stuff you dislike and focus on the stuff you're interested in, and whether you can find like-minded people to join in on what you find interesting and create roleplay centered around said stuff.

    Sorry if this was superduper word-soupy/train of consciousness, I'm tired as hell and my brain shut down like two hours ago.
    OxyBoosteyaShaydeAereidhna
  • OxyOxy Posts: 3Member
    I do appreciate you pointing out the depth of the different cities and the such, and how they don't reflect much on the outside. I think that might be a big reason WHY I think the way I do.

    I'd even go as far as saying I feel like most city people don't even get involved with their own city's depth, let alone anyone else's. And that is indeed what bugs me. I don't like being part of a city that is going to criticize another's point of view without even fully understanding their own.

    Excuses to fight, I feel like they are, sometimes.

    However I am very interested in this depth you mention, and have had Oxy ponder this a lot lately. She feels like she doesn't belong in any city, but like she can learn something from all of them (and in all her years, has). So perhaps, regarding my personal issue with this topic, it's time I DO something about it in-character rather than just complain.
  • NazihkNazihk Posts: 932Member @ - Epic Achaean
    I really like the Dawnblades as a house because all of the advancement tasks are things that I would do anyways. It's a combat house and all the tasks are various versions of "fight people". Raid, crusade, defile, duels, assassinations, etc. I do the fun stuff I want to do in this game, and the house will promote me if I don't suck at it. 
    OmorBoosteyaAereidhna
  • FrederichFrederich Posts: 1,243Member @ - Epic Achaean
    Admittedly, I'd probably be more advanced if I was in.. say... The Dawnblade, simply because I'm actually learning how to fight (sort of) in compairision to say the Harbingers.  I really do like the Harbingers, though.

    It isn't just about leading prayers, and rituals, though they do give a healthy bit of bonuses to your 'score' for the rank you're currently in.  They also give points for writing books, having and joining in discussions, etc.  It's an entirely interesting sort of thing that I can genuinely say I like.

    I gave @Torinn a book about the Bal'Met saga written from the perspective of a Mhaldorian.  It's entirely intriguing, because we attempt to learn why the other people have the culture that they do, and get to understand things from their view.  Sure, we do also try to convert people, but Targossas genuinely believes what they're doing is the best thing for everyone involved.  In a way, it is!

    It's a lot more than "Lawful Stupid" that I originally thought of whenever I was in Cyrene, and a LOT less grinding out house tasks left and right... Then again.  I'm a dragon, and that means I can die 4-5 times and lose 1% so...
    BoosteyaTalamondAereidhnaTorinn
  • ShirszaeShirszae Santo DomingoPosts: 2,971Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Every city genuinely believes what they are doing is the best thing for everyone involved.

    And you won't understand the cause of your grief...


    ...But you'll always follow the voices beneath.

    BoosteyaAereidhnaLiyaneAilea
  • OmorOmor Posts: 756Member ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Vesios said:

    i still don't know what hashan's about


    Omor Ceberek - Targossas

    got gud
    BoosteyaArmaliLiyane
  • ExelethrilExelethril Posts: 3,198Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Such philosophy, very debate wow

    [ SnB PvP Guide | Link ]

    [ Runewarden Sparring Videos | Link ]
    IniarLiyane
  • AsmodronAsmodron Posts: 2,404Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited January 2017
    That is one of the reasons I enjoy Hashan. It isnt so black and white as to become boring. Some people find this confusing towards their RP and want a more static concept to follow and I fully support their choice, but Hashan could never become that. I believe it is the depth of Hashan's true nature that mostly gets me to love it.



    As for Houses. Never liked them much, and I like them even less now. I honestly dont see a point in joining one, unless it is a novice seeking to learn the ropes of achaea life. I much much more prefer roguing it out.


    Edit: To add, in some IRE the guilds/houses have more meaning and definition to them and I believe my favorite would have to be Lusternia. Join the priesthood of faith for your org? Go to the Guardian archetype guild and get closer with the 'divine' beings that represent it, as well as maintain the 'plane' they exist on. Want to enhance the culture of your org? Go to the Bard archetype guild and get access to the stage. Want to get nurture and protect your woods? Join the Druid archetype guild and keep an eye on the forests, carve up totems, and help the plants grow. etc. etc. I suppose it really all gets down to how closely their classes are tied to their guilds in general, not in the mechanical sense but more of the flavor and source, as well as the tasks that come with the duties.
    BoosteyaOxy
  • GawiGawi WashingtonPosts: 76Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited January 2017
    Just a few comments, and these comments are on the limited view of being in the Merchants since that is the house that I'm in, and the last House I was in was the Serpentlords and I cannot even remember how all that crazy was run. 

    Firstly, having the little work that our novices do in the house gathering cures, learning how to get places, and writing a few sentences means that (hopefully) they will not be dying all the time from either lack of knowledge or laziness of getting their required items. Learning their way around, they find their way to our house shops which is not super exciting but essential, and writing the few sentences required lets us get to know them a little. So getting from rank 1-3 in the Merchants is fairly easy and helps the novice or reborn and helps their fellow Merchants get to know them a little.  Now after rank 3 is where a lot of people get stuck, no one wants to move up. There is more work to be done, but that is where we really teach you about what we know as Merchants. So if you actually joined the Merchants house with the intent to learn what we know, you will pass from rank 3-5. If not well... we have quite a few of those that just sit at rank 3. 

    I don't know how other houses are run, I don't know how those systems are, but honestly I think the way ours is, while I'm sure it can and will be tweaked and changed and has been, well it works. The problem is with people who get to rank 3 or to rank 5 and expect to be just handed the golden keys and not have to do anything else and think well, I'm a full member I should know everything and get to do everything, where as there have been people that have been in the house for hundreds of years who will just laugh at you and say get to work. 


    While yes I realize that some people don't like to go to their real life jobs, then come home and get on achaea and work. Some people don't always see this as work. I get to choose when I do the work in the game, I get to step away if I don't want to do the work in the game, if I'm stressed or annoyed I can step away... so its not really work? real life if I did that I would get fired. I can also tell people how I really feel in achaea... real life I would get fired :p 

    Though I do understand the point of view of wanting more interesting types of conflict out of the game. I think some people are very happy with what they have... just saying. 

    CamrothAereidhnaBoosteyaBann
  • CoamenelCoamenel Posts: 188Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Boosteya said:


    Message #2159       Sent by [redacted]
    2017/1/23/23:08 Hrm maybe I should then. Like, this feels like chores ya know? Do this, do that. Get this level, read this, make a poster. Like dude, I just wanna play and have fun. Not petty chore work. We're not all into gaining social rank.



    I feel what he/she is saying. I need to get HR5 to get into Artemis per-order, if I wouldn't have had that for motivation I probably would never have went for HR5.

    It's quite a lot of work, learn about the how and why of Patrons, learn about the other house you did -not- join, make posters (or anything that feeds the factional propaganda), get feedback, improve, feedback, improve more, get approval, buy blanks, produce posters, hang them everywhere (which was actually the fun part, getting them in Hashan/Mhaldor). I've spent quite some time on it already and it may all be in vain if I get zero response to my propaganda, which is highly likely since it's factional and the other side is probably just going to mushroom my work anyway.

    Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying there shouldn't be requirements. But I can relate to what anon says about it, you have to go through a lot of shit just to be rewarded with full membership. While having these requirements help you understand more about your faction/RP (it did in my case), the opposite is driving people away by making it nearly impossible to achieve. But I guess that's the issue, isn't it? You'll always have people that will be like 'fuck this I'm out' and 'I wish we would be focusing more on lore and tasks'.

    Maybe we could just scrap the set-in-stone requirements and leave it to a persons mentor to judge if someone has a grasp of what the house is about? Or maybe a mentor/HoN person can decide on per-person tasks to be done by a HR5-? Just thinking out loud here.


    AereidhnaBoosteyaPrythe
  • XadenXaden Posts: 2,293Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Coamenel said:
    Boosteya said:


    Message #2159       Sent by [redacted]
    2017/1/23/23:08 Hrm maybe I should then. Like, this feels like chores ya know? Do this, do that. Get this level, read this, make a poster. Like dude, I just wanna play and have fun. Not petty chore work. We're not all into gaining social rank.



    I feel what he/she is saying. I need to get HR5 to get into Artemis per-order, if I wouldn't have had that for motivation I probably would never have went for HR5.

    It's quite a lot of work, learn about the how and why of Patrons, learn about the other house you did -not- join, make posters (or anything that feeds the factional propaganda), get feedback, improve, feedback, improve more, get approval, buy blanks, produce posters, hang them everywhere (which was actually the fun part, getting them in Hashan/Mhaldor). I've spent quite some time on it already and it may all be in vain if I get zero response to my propaganda, which is highly likely since it's factional and the other side is probably just going to mushroom my work anyway.

    Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying there shouldn't be requirements. But I can relate to what anon says about it, you have to go through a lot of shit just to be rewarded with full membership. While having these requirements help you understand more about your faction/RP (it did in my case), the opposite is driving people away by making it nearly impossible to achieve. But I guess that's the issue, isn't it? You'll always have people that will be like 'fuck this I'm out' and 'I wish we would be focusing more on lore and tasks'.

    Maybe we could just scrap the set-in-stone requirements and leave it to a persons mentor to judge if someone has a grasp of what the house is about? Or maybe a mentor/HoN person can decide on per-person tasks to be done by a HR5-? Just thinking out loud here.


    I like the idea of a more homogenous approach to promotion, but you'll nearly always miss someone. 

    I, for example, play between 6am to 10pm GMT so wouldn't see a huge amount of what happens during the night. Cailan, who's our HoN has a more scattered log in time, but definitely wouldn't see everything either.

    So what happens there is it puts an obligation on senior house members to report or verify peoples claims, and that's just not going to happen.
         He is a coward who has to bring two friends as backup to jump people hunting.

    AereidhnaBoosteya
  • CoamenelCoamenel Posts: 188Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Xaden said:
    Coamenel said:
    Boosteya said:


    Message #2159       Sent by [redacted]
    2017/1/23/23:08 Hrm maybe I should then. Like, this feels like chores ya know? Do this, do that. Get this level, read this, make a poster. Like dude, I just wanna play and have fun. Not petty chore work. We're not all into gaining social rank.



    I feel what he/she is saying. I need to get HR5 to get into Artemis per-order, if I wouldn't have had that for motivation I probably would never have went for HR5.

    It's quite a lot of work, learn about the how and why of Patrons, learn about the other house you did -not- join, make posters (or anything that feeds the factional propaganda), get feedback, improve, feedback, improve more, get approval, buy blanks, produce posters, hang them everywhere (which was actually the fun part, getting them in Hashan/Mhaldor). I've spent quite some time on it already and it may all be in vain if I get zero response to my propaganda, which is highly likely since it's factional and the other side is probably just going to mushroom my work anyway.

    Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying there shouldn't be requirements. But I can relate to what anon says about it, you have to go through a lot of shit just to be rewarded with full membership. While having these requirements help you understand more about your faction/RP (it did in my case), the opposite is driving people away by making it nearly impossible to achieve. But I guess that's the issue, isn't it? You'll always have people that will be like 'fuck this I'm out' and 'I wish we would be focusing more on lore and tasks'.

    Maybe we could just scrap the set-in-stone requirements and leave it to a persons mentor to judge if someone has a grasp of what the house is about? Or maybe a mentor/HoN person can decide on per-person tasks to be done by a HR5-? Just thinking out loud here.


    I like the idea of a more homogenous approach to promotion, but you'll nearly always miss someone. 

    I, for example, play between 6am to 10pm GMT so wouldn't see a huge amount of what happens during the night. Cailan, who's our HoN has a more scattered log in time, but definitely wouldn't see everything either.

    So what happens there is it puts an obligation on senior house members to report or verify peoples claims, and that's just not going to happen.
    The Eleusian bounty programme is based on witnessing, could add that in. But yeah, you have a fair point.
    Boosteya
  • AhmetAhmet Wherever I wanna bePosts: 3,370Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I miss Quaero :(
    Huh. Neat.
    Aereidhna
  • IsmayIsmay Posts: 440Member ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Arg, I hate houses with a passion for a single reason alone - advancement requirements. All these cities that require house membership? Yeah, I avoid them like the plague even if I'd love to join a specific one otherwise. I'll randomly send a tell to someone on the city help file to check to see if they still require it only to be told yes. Throughout the years, I've become so jaded against them that even reasonable reqs set off alarm bells and send me back to playing rogues.

    All this caused from experiencing very bad situations involving house requirements and those players that oversee/enforce them.
    ZahanBoosteyaAereidhna
  • KyrraKyrra Sanctum of the SkyPosts: 4,566Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I'd be Housless if I could be. 

    I had a grand time with the Merchants, but all the crap and drama I've gone through with the Consortium to get to HR5 pretty much brings up every bad memory I had experienced with guilds and was precisely why I never wanted to be part of a House.

    My character serves the city that she is a part of, and everything centres around that. When I log in, I really hate that I need to figure out what all needs doing and to prioritise my time for what feels like two very different organisations when I just want to log in and relax, and doing things to enjoy myself.

    Tasks and requirements, if they are a necessity, ought to reflect upon the age and the knowledge of the person needing to do them. The Merchants were really great about this and I finished everything I needed to do with the Merchants in about 2 RL days because they took into consideration how long my character had been around, the positions she held, what she was already capable of doing and didn't need to be taught. I wish all Houses were like this.

    Advanced past HR5 should be something engaging, but I get the feeling of "Why bother?" that most people get when they read HR3. Once you get full membership, where is the incentive to do anything more for a House? I'm already asking myself that because in my case, I find myself waiting to hear back from a single person about the possibilities of progression, and that single person is in a different timezone to me, so I either need to be waking up at 4am to play Achaea before I get ready for work, or I just find other things to occupy my time because it's just not worth getting fussed over.

    I'd really, really like if advancement was entirely automated. Much like how the City task system is set up. Do this, this, and that, and automatically advance without needing to wait around for human interaction, or having to awkward time zones. I'd probably find that a whole lot more enjoyable than the way things currently are. I'd like to be able to log in, decide I want to work on a house rank, complete a bunch of pre-determined tasks and feel like I'm actually achieving something.
    (D.M.A.): Cooper says, "Kyrra is either the most innocent person in the world, or the girl who uses the most innuendo seemingly unintentionally but really on purpose."

    ShaydeNoakBoosteyaAereidhna
  • DevranDevran Posts: 541Member ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Or do what I did and ignore them, get Legendary Blacksmith and get surprise promoted to Rank 5!
    KyrraBoosteya
  • SarathaiSarathai Posts: 2,139Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Kyrra said:
    Advanced past HR5 should be something engaging, but I get the feeling of "Why bother?" that most people get when they read HR3. Once you get full membership, where is the incentive to do anything more for a House?
    I've noticed that this seems to be an issue in multiple factions, and it's a fair point regarding incentives. It feels like motivating people to do things is akin to pulling teeth sometimes.
    - (Eleusis): Ellodin says, "The Fissure of Echoes is Sarathai's happy place."
    - With sharp, crackling tones, Kyrra tells you, "The ladies must love you immensely."
    - (Eleusian Ranger Techs): Savira says, "Most of the hard stuff seem to have this built in code like: If adventurer_hitting_me = "Sarathai" then send("terminate and selfdestruct")."
    - Makarios says, "Serve well and perish."
    - Xaden says, "Xaden confirmed scrub 2017."



    NataliiaKyrraOxyBoosteya
  • OmorOmor Posts: 756Member ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    The argument of "you can buy more credits in the house credit sale at higher HR!" is also a terrible incentive. Buying 1-2 extra credits every few weeks at 70% CFS is not worth all the work put into a lot of houses to go up HR.
    Omor Ceberek - Targossas

    got gud
    NataliiaKyrraOxyBoosteya
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