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Is Achaea losing its "world"?

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  • TristitiaTristitia Member Posts: 61 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    These responses actually helped me a lot. Maybe I don't have to give up completely on my style. I've always intended to adapt, and I think I now have a better idea of how to.

    And @Melodie I'm here more than you'd think!
  • JonathinJonathin A deep pit of hunger and despairMember Posts: 3,071 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Screw time constraint. You get faster and more concise with time. A wise man once said: haters gonna hate.

    (Mudlet Clan): Nylian says, "Mosr's on the case. Fix incoming."

    Tutorials and scripts  The Repository

    ShirszaeBadeLiyaneNataliia
  • CaelanCaelan Member Posts: 543 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Dunn said:
    It's what we try to do on a semi daily basis ofc. Ruin, oblivion, government shutdown, etc


    BadeTwilight
  • RileyRiley Member Posts: 323 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    edited February 10
    Having played on and off for a very long time, my biggest reason for taking long breaks has been growing up. It is not the monthly promotions, not houses, not the changes. It is having kids, working to support my family and not having the time to do my favorite parts of the game to a level I felt it deserves. My first real character was Sorley,  an Infernal from when the Infernal were a guild in Ashtan, who made a big mistake, that luckily no one is old enough to remember. Then came Riley who shone politically with no combat prowess in Mhaldor for years in leadership positions or advisor roles. I bowed out because I didn't have time to do these things to the level I felt the people who relied on me deserved. It is nothing Matt, Clementius, Jeremy (Hail my favorite Sartan), or Justin did that drove me away.
    image
    IniarBreanZulah
  • YammaYamma Member Posts: 3
    edited April 30
    The inability to be relevant against higher-tier combatants without artefacts and the steadily dwindling numbers of targets of opportunity over the last few years, combined with the (incredibly) more rigid, 'enforced' political/social structure that exists now have produced what feels like a very stale, linear world compared to what it was 10-15 years ago. Also, the changes to theft.

    I feel like the world is less organic -- characters contribute less to defining the 'state of things' through actual play -- despite having vastly improved and increased ways to interact with the world -- and Light, Darkness, Evil, and Chaos are locked in a perpetual stalemate.

    Achaea isn't as wild as it used to be.
  • DochithaDochitha Member Posts: 927 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    I can't understand the idea of RP and have always played Achaea as a game. Dochitha is who I am in real, not a different character. Life is too complicated to assume more characters than the original. Subtle OOC keeps me in game. I will think everyone is insane if things are 100% IC. That's just me... 
    PrytheCaelan
  • AhmetAhmet Wherever I wanna beMember Posts: 3,131 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Thats very dependent on your class and the class youre up against, Cooper.
    Huh. Neat.
  • TaryiusTaryius Member Posts: 238 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    I have no arties.. None
    And the only classes I've fought that really made me tear my hair out and legitimately make me think... Man arties could make or break my fights here are DwB, 2H, Depthswalker and Priest... 

    I think you can still fight all of these unartied! I think you can do fine, and it is by no means a win condition to be artiered vs unartied (Well.. Maybe DWB but that depends on class)

    I feel like artefacts are more of a scapegoat and a way for people to complain about how they lost...
  • DaeirDaeir AustraliaMember, Secret Squirrel Posts: 6,039 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited April 30
    You can't compete without a disadvantage against artefacts.

    Some people intensely dislike that notion, that someone's wallet determines in no small part their ability to compete within the game. Other people have no problem with it - typically the people that do not mind shelling out for said advantages.

    It just is the way it is. Don't try to defend it, or fob off that people can "still win against artefacts if they really try!!" because that's just plainly obvious. At the end of the day, no matter how you roll the dice, the person with 5k sunk into artefacts has a character that is significantly stronger than another of the same level who has sunk no dollars into the game.

    They sip for more, they have more health, they have more stats, their attacks hit harder, faster, they have multiple classes, they might have a mount that can't be killed. They might have wings which give them a means to escape, they might be able to port to allies, they might be invisible to farsight type skills, or invisible on WHO. The list goes on.

    You can win against those people, but it relies on them being shit more than it relies on you being good. And that's a dealbreaker for most people. Obviously, we're not most people.
    :pleased::pleased:
  • YammaYamma Member Posts: 3
    Utility arties alone have significant combat implications when you're 'playing the map'. Wings, veil, stick, pipes, mask, lyre, earrings, etc.
  • AtalkezAtalkez Member, Secret Squirrel Posts: 3,725 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Being able to succeed and succeeding being reasonable aren't the same thing. I did my stint with 0 artifacts, and while I didn't do badly I also had plenty of instances where X arte would have helped.

    Cant say how many times I've rage bought arties, buts definitely happened. 


    You hug Aurora compassionately.
    SiduriYamma
  • AerekAerek East Tennessee, USAMember Posts: 1,813 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    While I think his statement was a sweeping generalization, I do agree with Cooper. Cooper--and to a lesser extent, myself--hark from a time before "balance" was anywhere close to what it is now, and perhaps before it was even a design intention. In the dark ages long passed, an artefacted Monk really could one-shot you with Web/AXK, and there was nothing you could do about it except buy artefacts or avoid them at all costs. On the flip side, an unartefacted Runewarden could repeatedly disembowel an artefacted target for less than a health sip, since Disembowel wasn't always designed to bypass defenses and deal %-based damage. For a long time, this was just how it was. Only in the last 5 years or so can I remember dedicated efforts to make sure each class was balanced against each other at a base level in some semblance of fairness.

    So what I think Cooper was trying to say was "Every class currently has mechanically-viable kill paths and a legitimate chance of killing every other class, without artefacts," because that just wasn't always the case. Artefacts certainly help, (or hurt, if you're facing them) but the worst scenarios of artefacts making someone either unsurvivable or unkillable are generally outliers, as opposed to "features". Even pre-nerf Depthwalker Degen at its worst didn't measure up to Shiro-style Dragon Lunge/Engages or Osek-era Grook Staffcasts.

    For better or for worse, I think scripting ability is more required than artefacts these days.
    -- Grounded in but one perspective, what we perceive is an exaggeration of the truth.
    PrytheAccipiterDochithaYamma
  • TaryiusTaryius Member Posts: 238 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited April 30
    Daeir said:
    You can't compete without a disadvantage against artefacts.

    Some people intensely dislike that notion, that someone's wallet determines in no small part their ability to compete within the game. Other people have no problem with it - typically the people that do not mind shelling out for said advantages.

    It just is the way it is. Don't try to defend it, or fob off that people can "still win against artefacts if they really try!!" because that's just plainly obvious. At the end of the day, no matter how you roll the dice, the person with 5k sunk into artefacts has a character that is significantly stronger than another of the same level who has sunk no dollars into the game.

    They sip for more, they have more health, they have more stats, their attacks hit harder, faster, they have multiple classes, they might have a mount that can't be killed. They might have wings which give them a means to escape, they might be able to port to allies, they might be invisible to farsight type skills, or invisible on WHO. The list goes on.

    You can win against those people, but it relies on them being shit more than it relies on you being good. And that's a dealbreaker for most people. Obviously, we're not most people.
    Sorry, but I can't agree with this statement. You talk about having a stronger character like that is what determines who wins. Combat in Achaea is nothing like other MMO's or grinding games where it's just who has the better weapon and if they do more DPS than you can heal. It's not.

    Achaean combat is so entirely skill based. Yes, you fight at a disavantage against someone with artefacts but that is no where near the notion that artefacts determine fights or someones ability to pick up combat. (If anything lessons do, and even then those are small investments). They give room for error, they streamline abilities, they give you -oh shit- buttons. But all these things have other forms of counterplay available. You can't just buy arties and go 'yay I'm a good fighter now'.

    Achaea has been getting more and more balanced around not having artefacts, while still lending them their power.
  • AegothAegoth Member Posts: 2,047 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Daeir's never really had a good grasp of Achaean combat, hence why he's stuck in that mindset of "arties make the fighter". It's not worth arguing, Taryius
    TaryiusCaelan
  • NazihkNazihk Member Posts: 587 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Taryius said:

    You can't just buy arties and go 'yay I'm a good fighter now'.
    Sure you can.

    You just have to pick the right class and then get enough artifacts. Sure, it doesn't work on everybody. You won't beat that first class tier of fighters who are both heavily artifacted and heavily skilled. And you might not beat the people who aren't artifacted but who are very skilled and in a profession that can lock you down rapidly, or that has a super-safe slowprep route.

    But if you are even half decent you can absolutely artifact yourself up to a point where you can brute force most of the game down. 
  • MathildaMathilda Member Posts: 367 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Yes, hmm. To make a blanket statement that artifacts are not a massive help is a bit naive. There are certain combinations of artifacts and class that just plain can't be beaten by No-Artifacts Nancy, no matter how skilled Nancy might be. On the other hand, there are classes (hi, shaman and alchemist) that allow even No-Artifacts Nancy to compete against artifact whales.

    Basically, blanket statements of Artifacts vs No Artifacts won't do. It's a combination of class abilities, artifacts, and actual player skill.
     <3 
  • RangorRangor Member Posts: 2,807 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    If you read what daeir said, you will see that he is entirely correct. You -can- win a fight without artied against someone with artied, because it is skill based. But the person with artied hits harder, faster, tanks more, can escape more easily, etc. So going into the competition anyone without arties is very handicapped. If I started the game today I would uninstall after I learned just how pay to win this game is. 
    image
    ExelethrilYamma
  • RangorRangor Member Posts: 2,807 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    It should also be said that it is possible still to this day to power up and artied up in achaea by IG means. It just takes an insane amount of effort, grind and hours.
    image
  • JonathinJonathin A deep pit of hunger and despairMember Posts: 3,071 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Artefacts only help me survive long enough to realize what is happening before I die.

    (Mudlet Clan): Nylian says, "Mosr's on the case. Fix incoming."

    Tutorials and scripts  The Repository

    PrytheCaelan
  • DurianDurian Member Posts: 107 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited May 1
    To me it escapes the pay to win because of IG means. Sure it takes ridiculously longer to be able to afford all that shit from bashing, trading, questing, whatever. Pay to win in my mind has always been about only being able to get blah blah with real money, which isn't the case here.

    Edit: If you don't have the time to invest to grind all that stuff out, and you flood the forums with "pay to win" arguments, your complaints are probably going to fall on deaf ears.
    CaelanLaedhaCailin
  • MathildaMathilda Member Posts: 367 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Achaea has a very strong "pay to win" aspect.
     <3 
  • TaryiusTaryius Member Posts: 238 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Perhaps I phrased this wrong.... I'd rather fight an artie whale that I would a skilled fighter. Skill always trumps artefacts when it comes to fighting, but artefact do convey a benefit. I just see that benefit as something I can fight against.
  • ArmaliArmali Member, Secret Squirrel Posts: 608 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Neither option is appealing, but I'd rather fight a skilled fighter than a whale. At least if I lose to the skilled fighter (whom, in this case, we'd presume not to be whaled up), I have a good excuse. If I lose to a whale I just get mildly embarrassed and somewhat angry at the state of game balance.
  • DaeirDaeir AustraliaMember, Secret Squirrel Posts: 6,039 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Aegoth said:
    Daeir's never really had a good grasp of Achaean combat, hence why he's stuck in that mindset of "arties make the fighter". It's not worth arguing, Taryius
    2/10. See me after class.

    Taryius said:
    Daeir said:
    You can't compete without a disadvantage against artefacts.

    Some people intensely dislike that notion, that someone's wallet determines in no small part their ability to compete within the game. Other people have no problem with it - typically the people that do not mind shelling out for said advantages.

    It just is the way it is. Don't try to defend it, or fob off that people can "still win against artefacts if they really try!!" because that's just plainly obvious. At the end of the day, no matter how you roll the dice, the person with 5k sunk into artefacts has a character that is significantly stronger than another of the same level who has sunk no dollars into the game.

    They sip for more, they have more health, they have more stats, their attacks hit harder, faster, they have multiple classes, they might have a mount that can't be killed. They might have wings which give them a means to escape, they might be able to port to allies, they might be invisible to farsight type skills, or invisible on WHO. The list goes on.

    You can win against those people, but it relies on them being shit more than it relies on you being good. And that's a dealbreaker for most people. Obviously, we're not most people.
    Sorry, but I can't agree with this statement. You talk about having a stronger character like that is what determines who wins. Combat in Achaea is nothing like other MMO's or grinding games where it's just who has the better weapon and if they do more DPS than you can heal. It's not.

    Achaean combat is so entirely skill based. Yes, you fight at a disavantage against someone with artefacts but that is no where near the notion that artefacts determine fights or someones ability to pick up combat. (If anything lessons do, and even then those are small investments). They give room for error, they streamline abilities, they give you -oh shit- buttons. But all these things have other forms of counterplay available. You can't just buy arties and go 'yay I'm a good fighter now'.

    Achaea has been getting more and more balanced around not having artefacts, while still lending them their power.
    Having a stronger character obviously leans you towards being more able to achieve victory. Combat in Achaea is complex, but its fundamental premise of character strengths via attributes and gear is shared by every RPG in history. It's a staple of the system. A character that is geared better is stronger. Period. You can't "disagree" with this, the same way you can't disagree with the fact that water is wet or the sun is hot. It just is.

    Achaea's relatively complex combat system may loan itself well towards situations where people that understand it fare better against those who don't, but the vast, overwhelming majority of the time, two skilled fighters of the same class paired against each other will boil down to pretty much who has more artefacts than the other. It'd be weird as shit if it didn't work that way frankly - who would spend so much money on something not to get advantages from it? I'm not saying that this means Achaean combat is -entirely- based on artefact purchases, but they are a very significant factor in the sphere, and if you do not have them, you are competing at a disadvantage.

    And by their very nature, advantages are generally inclined towards giving the people that have them the best chance at victory.

    Artefacts by their very design, give immense, overwhelming benefits to those who have them vs those who don't. It's fact. It isn't up for debate.

    Achaea has made pretty good strides towards unartied people being more viable than they historically were in the past across a variety of classes, but the disparity in strength between people with artefacts will always be present, because Achaea's business model relies on it to exist. PVP artefacts would serve no purpose if they did not offer an advantage.

    I'm 99% sure that something as simple as auction escrow build value over the number of player kills a person has would be an extremely strong way of demonstrating this point with data, but alas.
    :pleased::pleased:
  • DaeirDaeir AustraliaMember, Secret Squirrel Posts: 6,039 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Don't take this to mean that I'm harping on the game - I'm not, because the artefact advantage is a very real aspect of what makes Achaea what it is. It isn't geared to be a competitive, all-inclusive combat experience, it's geared to be a niche game that appeals to a set audience of people who do not mind that large advantages are able to be purchased for money. It does not make it less as a game for functioning this way.

    It would be a very different game if artefact effects were shunted into in-game attainable mechanics. A very, VERY different game.
    :pleased::pleased:
  • AtalkezAtalkez Member, Secret Squirrel Posts: 3,725 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited May 1
    That seems like a weird way to look at it, to me. It's hard to quantify actual skill like that, at least imo. You also won't have a solid comparison for people that have retired, as they retain all of the skill while none of the kills. So arti-ing up your retired char is going to drastically affect this 'PK number' or whatever you want to call it. Also what about arena wins? Artefacts would help there, too.

    But I'll play along!


    All of your artefacts give you the ability to have 17926 credits in escrow.
     Slain    : 4272


    17926/4272 = 4.20 (420 ayyy)

    If you include arena wins

    Arena Duels: 1384 + 4272 = 5656
    17926/5656 = 3.17


    You hug Aurora compassionately.
  • DaeirDaeir AustraliaMember, Secret Squirrel Posts: 6,039 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    You'd have to adjust it to per registration account over individual characters maybe, but I'm fairly sure the premise would stand. The spread would be interesting to see.
    :pleased::pleased:
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