Welcome to the Achaea Forums! Please be sure to read the Forum Rules.

Is Achaea losing its "world"?

24567

Comments

  • KryptonKrypton shi-KhurenaMember Posts: 1,968 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Eminent Master Rho Dev'Evensong yells, "Verrucht! May you be gods-damned
    three times over! I spared your people once, where are you now?"

    Then Bronislav reaped him and he was enemied.

    lol das it.

    (Mhaldor): Herenicus says, "Apologies, I am in-and-out of hold with Verizon wireless customer service."
  • KryptonKrypton shi-KhurenaMember Posts: 1,968 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Oh, right, he also called everyone standing at Centre Crossing "whores."
    (Mhaldor): Herenicus says, "Apologies, I am in-and-out of hold with Verizon wireless customer service."
    Halos
  • CalynCalyn Member Posts: 111 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Greys said:
    Whores get paid
    Cyrenian citizenship has enough discounts to merit that.
    ShaydeElipise
  • KayeilKayeil Washington StateMember Posts: 2,681 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I think the intense focus on combat in Achaea by the people who run it has a lot to do with all of this. Try a different IRE game with less of a focus on combat, and more focus on exploring, hunting and RP and you will start to see the differences. I've tried 3 other IRE games and they are vastly different for the most part, though I think Imperian has quite a few combatants that might do well in Achaea if they aren't already here.
    What doesn't kill you gives you exp.

    Aereidhna
  • ExelethrilExelethril moar theta decayMember Posts: 3,063 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    While it's logically tautological that RP defines Achaea, not everyone's experience in Achaea is necessarily defined by what a small % of players perceive as a dilution of RP.

    Personally, I like all the innovation/improvements/events the admins have done over the past 2 years to make Achaea a better world to play in. The promotions are a form of monetary recompense and how anyone's personal RP enjoyment can be affected by something mutually exclusive like that hints at a particular brand of entitlement/pickiness.

    [ SnB PvP Guide | Link ]

    [ Runewarden Sparring Videos | Link ]
    ShirszaeIniarAetheleAejed
  • DaeirDaeir AustraliaMember, Secret Squirrel Posts: 6,065 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited January 15
    Don't get me wrong, the past year or two has had some absolutely incredible mechanical improvements - from multiclass to class reworks and performance improvements on the whole. The administration has done an INCREDIBLE job in pushing forward so many sweeping changes in that regard so quickly and with relatively little fuss.

    What I honestly don't understand is why that same level of enthusiasm and engagement with mechanics hasn't filtered down into the playerbase. People seem.. unmotivated to bring the world sphere alive as it once was in the past, and I really don't understand why. Is OOC communication to blame for it? I really don't know.
    :pleased::pleased:
    Liyane
  • MinifieMinifie Member Posts: 912 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    Nataliia said:
    Do you know what makes Achaea feel like a smaller game? The fact that the player base is, on average, 1/5th of the size it used to be on peak times. It didn't used to be unusual for 500+ people to be logged on at any given time. It went from 1 IRE game, to 5, to 4, and soon to be 5. So really, it is legitimately smaller... so maybe that's why it feels smaller. I mean call logic crazy, but it's just a thought.

    OOC clans have existed since my first IRE incarnation 16 RL years ago. This isn't a new concept folks. They didn't suddenly crop up out of nowhere and eat the game. Are there more of them now? Yes. Do they tend to act in place of chat rooms? Sure. But how is that different than groups that used to all get a group AIM chat going or something out of game. Just because it's happening in the game proper instead of in some other out-of-Achaea context doesn't make the impact any different. People who are going to meta and bitch and whine and whatever else that are considered toxic to IRE are going to do it no matter whether it's in IRE or out. So the "where" is irrelevant, aside from the fact that things said in OOC clans can be tracked by the Admin if necessary. On this same coattail, cliques have always existed too, in every IRE game. In fact that's one thing I can say used to feel -way- worse when guilds were a thing. You weren't in someone's good graces or kissing their ass the right way, then you didn't get class. Period. Thank god that's not a thing now.

    The complaint about promos breaking immersion is silly. They have absolutely fuck all to do with breaking things IC. I mean, I suppose it can be weird to say "this item was from a promo" ICly, but glazing over it really isn't that difficult. We sell credits ICly. We have a whole market for it that's been there forever, and even before the actual market was implemented people still sold credits over the market channel to one another, and I consider credits pretty OOC by default (especially considering that you can trade credits to alts if you purchased them off the website). Frankly, I'm happy about promos. I'd be pretty bummed if they took them away again. Elite memberships and promotions are something I wish had been around since the beginning because IRE as a company went, "You know what, I think we should make the ability to buy nice things more inclusive for all players and not just people with fat wallets." But yeah, I guess we should bitch about promos and how horrible they are and that IRE is just a cash cow cause they're greedy shits huh? We're grateful like that.

    At the end of the day, if you want Achaea to be immersive, then get off your ass and do something about it. You want to see sermons and debates and stuff, write some, start some. You can't complain about these things not happening ever when you aren't doing anything to change it yourself. I mean, I suppose you can, but it's a cyclical argument and kinda dumb. There are plenty of people that play Achaea, myself included, that LOVE to RP. It's not like we don't exist. I will often put bashing, combat, gathering, crafting, and whatever else aside for RP. I feel like people saying things like this on the forums endlessly just dissuades genuinely new people from even wanting to give things a go, and that's how the game remains so small people, by chasing potential new players away with such disgusting negativity about the game as a game and as a business.

    TL;DR - You want to play Achaea for immersion. Then go immerse yourself. Moar time IC, less time whining OOC... about OOC stuff... on the OOC forums.
    Of all this, the one thing that's broken my immersion more than anything else, has been rule pedantry. It's one thing to all caps "TRUMP WON BITCHES" over CT but having to argue PK rules in game can be a real killer.
  • NataliiaNataliia Member Posts: 305 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    @Minifie Pretty sure I'm missing something. Not sure what PK rules and arguing them in game has to do with anything I wrote there. 
  • MinifieMinifie Member Posts: 912 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    edited January 15
    Nataliia said:
    @Minifie Pretty sure I'm missing something. Not sure what PK rules and arguing them in game has to do with anything I wrote there. 
    It was in agreement with your statement, that the only thing that REALLY broke my immersion was having to discuss and argue PK, cause rules et al. 

    Actually, I could just have quoted the wrong person in the end. Sorry, was doing this on my phone without glasses so definitely quoted the wrong person. I do agree with your post.
    Nataliia
  • NataliiaNataliia Member Posts: 305 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    edited January 15
    Minifie said:
    Nataliia said:
    @Minifie Pretty sure I'm missing something. Not sure what PK rules and arguing them in game has to do with anything I wrote there. 
    It was in agreement with your statement, that the only thing that REALLY broke my immersion was having to discuss and argue PK, cause rules et al. 

    Actually, I could just have quoted the wrong person in the end. Sorry, was doing this on my phone without glasses so definitely quoted the wrong person. I do agree with your post.
    lol... no worries! I was just confused! (Honestly at 3am it doesn't take a lot to confuse me.) :)

    Edit: For the record, I don't like arguing about PK either. But it could be worse. They could be the old PK rules that required a lawyer to decipher. Thank goodness for Admin that realized they were insane and burned them and made them manageable.
    Minifie
  • MinifieMinifie Member Posts: 912 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    Nataliia said:
    Minifie said:
    Nataliia said:
    @Minifie Pretty sure I'm missing something. Not sure what PK rules and arguing them in game has to do with anything I wrote there. 
    It was in agreement with your statement, that the only thing that REALLY broke my immersion was having to discuss and argue PK, cause rules et al. 

    Actually, I could just have quoted the wrong person in the end. Sorry, was doing this on my phone without glasses so definitely quoted the wrong person. I do agree with your post.
    lol... no worries! I was just confused! (Honestly at 3am it doesn't take a lot to confuse me.) :)

    Edit: For the record, I don't like arguing about PK either. But it could be worse. They could be the old PK rules that required a lawyer to decipher. Thank goodness for Admin that realized they were insane and burned them and made them manageable.
    Cause counting was a nightmare, and the current system is infinitely better, but I prefer to live by the whole "death happens, whatevs' mentality. If I was near conflict, and I die, it happens. I'm not going to complain (probably will start chasing soon once I'm happier with my svof mucking aroundness).

    As long as someone isn't just killing me non-stop without a reason too, I'd never bother issuing or being a prick, makes conflict more fun anyway.
    NataliiaAziik
  • AsmodronAsmodron Member Posts: 2,027 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Having played Achaea for some 8 years now, as well as tried other IRE games, I can definitely see the inherent flaws that tend to destroy immersion.

    Once in Achaea, the OOC barrier was much more respected (even though weak)...these days, I will get random tells from individuals with blatant OOC talk, out of the blue, just because it is the norm. They dont even have the courtesy to put '//' before sending it. Even when I reply in the generally '//' ooc context, I can tell they cant be bothered to do the same and simply keep talking. In other IRE, such as Lusternia or even moreso Aetolia, it is expected to keep it IC and if you want to go OOC, then use '//' and even ask beforehand, some even only accepted to use messages for OOC talk. A hassle? Perhaps, but you gotta give to get better immersion.


    Achaea has always felt more combat focused, but as time went on, the barriers that kept the RP rivalry and competing customs just diluted and died out. These days, combatants from all over just seem to be buddy buddy OOC, laughing amongst one another of a 'good fight bro!'. I see tells on CT of "Okay I confirmed with X, they're done raiding", and I cant help but wonder why they have such open channels with enemies to discuss if they have had enough fun or not.


    Worse appears when unwritten rules somehow come into play, with people on PT stating "Nah they said they only have 3 combatants awake, and 2 non-coms, so 2 of us cant go to even it out". Im sorry is this a team sports match and are we deciding who goes shirts and who goes skins? What ever happened to the sheer urge to 'crush the malicious force'? I recall days when Shallam would be raided on the basis of "Destroy fricken Shallam and their influence", and not because "Let's have a brawl y'all". The immersion in raiding is dead. I actually -miss- the influence of Qashar. Yes they were asses, but they raided for the purpose of "Destroy Chaos/Darkness/Evil" and god knows their actions were brutal but spoke volumes of their RP resentment for said orgs.


    And when did OOC clans become the norm for communication between people and orgs? I have literally seen leaders of different orgs agree to raids, numbers, and general arguments, on an OOC clan, with them laughing or arguging, filled with "lols" and "you mad bro?". Why the heck isnt this done IC? It would be so much more interesting. The public news board is right there, and you all know we love a good political showdown on the public news. I choose to leave OOC clans after I saw the amount of corruption in them, and my immersion got much better for it.
  • IniarIniar Member Posts: 79 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Or maybe,

    people grew up, had kids, have external pressures and less time to invest in a game that marginally mirrors the complexities of real life.

    Maybe.
    TrillianaCrono
  • AsmodronAsmodron Member Posts: 2,027 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited January 15
    Iniar said:
    Or maybe,

    people grew up, had kids, have external pressures and less time to invest in a game that marginally mirrors the complexities of real life.

    Maybe.

    If people dont want complexity, then they probably shouldnt be playing an RPG, and even moreso, a combat RPG Mud...


    World of Warcraft fills the favorable laxity pretty well.
  • IniarIniar Member Posts: 79 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Maybe that is where they went!
    TrillianaAlbel
  • MarisellaMarisella Member Posts: 146 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    I haven't had a problem with immersion, ever since I started playing again about a year back or so.

    What I did notice has changed about Achaea is that the main initiators of public inter-factional interactions have mostly stopped playing, and there are none or not many people who have stepped up to replace them. As a result, factional tensions seem very flat and one-dimensional. Conflict still happens through raids and skirmishes, but it stops there.

    I miss the days where I could sit and drink tea with people while discussing about our opposing ideals and philosophies. I miss the days where public discourses were held, and many people of different cities would turn up to listen in or debate. I enjoyed participating in the events the Asterian Restoration held, and wish there were more player-initiated activities.

    Nowadays, whenever I try to approach people to talk about things like that, sometimes after a successful or unsuccessful skirmish has ended, I get answers that pretty much amount up to, "You and I have opposing ideals. See you on the battlefield." It makes me very sad.

    ShirszaeAereidhnaIllyose
  • TelinusTelinus Member Posts: 123 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Cooper said:
    Your choices make you feel less immersed, that's it. Don't want the world to feel ooc? Don't join ooc clans. Don't like that people break barriers with the promotion items? You don't have to sell or buy from enemies. Don't want going from area to area to feel cheap? Don't use an auto walker. Don't want people to talk ooc to you? Don't respond if they do and don't initiate ooc conversations. And lastly, don't use the forums.

    It's pretty simple.
    One of the issues with stating this, and I agree with you to a certain extent, is that OOC clans, Forums and OOC conversations, are so prevelant it seems, that if you're not part of the correct clique within your city in both an OOC and IC fashion, you can get the cold shoulder from other people. I know this isn't always the case, and may even be a reflection on me as a player with how I interact with others, however it does definitely seem like there is this prevelant OOC bias towards people who you interact with in an OOC format.

    Speaking of people who were talking blatantly OOC in a public place, its a shame when you see a city leader discussing things in an OOC format at a public area, or an area where people will and do frequently pass through, but then again that's me being a hypocrite as I have done this too. However, I'm not a factional leader - does it make it right? No, does it make it slightly less bad? Yes, in my opinion.
  • OzmatiahOzmatiah Member Posts: 25 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    I don't know that I think it's losing it's world.  The only thing that I really think changed things in recent years was smart phones.  It might be that it is just a pet peeve of mine, but if I had a credit for everytime I said "Hey can you do X,Y,Z for me?" and I got "//sorry on my phone" as an answer...
  • PrythePrythe Member Posts: 383 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    edited January 15
    Tahquil said:
    @Krypton I did miss Rho visiting Cyrene last week. Was anyone outside Cyrene involved? Was this visiit announce beforehand for the world to attend? Were we so impressed we logged it and put it on the forums gushing about it? Did it start a back and forth between the city and Rho? Or was he just enemied and forgotten?
    He entered and called everybody standing in Centre Crossing a whore.

    That was about the extent of his "preaching."

    eta: apparently I missed some yells - I was not in the City at the time.

    - To love another person is to see the face of G/d
    - Let me get my hat and my knife
    - It's your apple, take a bite
    - Don't dream it ... be it


  • IsrayhlIsrayhl Member Posts: 121 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Telinus said:
    Cooper said:
    Your choices make you feel less immersed, that's it. Don't want the world to feel ooc? Don't join ooc clans. Don't like that people break barriers with the promotion items? You don't have to sell or buy from enemies. Don't want going from area to area to feel cheap? Don't use an auto walker. Don't want people to talk ooc to you? Don't respond if they do and don't initiate ooc conversations. And lastly, don't use the forums.

    It's pretty simple.
    One of the issues with stating this, and I agree with you to a certain extent, is that OOC clans, Forums and OOC conversations, are so prevelant it seems, that if you're not part of the correct clique within your city in both an OOC and IC fashion, you can get the cold shoulder from other people. I know this isn't always the case, and may even be a reflection on me as a player with how I interact with others, however it does definitely seem like there is this prevelant OOC bias towards people who you interact with in an OOC format.

    Speaking of people who were talking blatantly OOC in a public place, its a shame when you see a city leader discussing things in an OOC format at a public area, or an area where people will and do frequently pass through, but then again that's me being a hypocrite as I have done this too. However, I'm not a factional leader - does it make it right? No, does it make it slightly less bad? Yes, in my opinion.
    When in Cyrene, I was not part of a single OOC clan, yet my interactions with others did not diminish, and I had no issues with getting where I wanted to go with complete IC interaction. I'm going to echo @Cooper and @Nataliia - Your choices decide your immersion for you. This ranges from everyday interactions, to interfactional interactions. The more you -choose- to put yourself out there, the more you will have. 

    I won't say that it is completely without cliques and that some people choose to make some decisions OOC'ly. However, if the groups you choose to interact with do that on the majority and it impacts your gameplay to that degree, then it would be worth it to move on from that clique. Frankly, of the IRE games I've played in (all of them), this current group in Achaea has been consistently the most mature and most approachable. I know a lot of that comes to us all being older and wiser, but it is refreshing to interact with adult-minded people MOST of the time. 

    So yeah. Get that cold shoulder, ignore/move away from that group, and create your own immersion. 
    Nataliia
  • NataliiaNataliia Member Posts: 305 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    I guess I'm personally split down the middle when it comes to OOC clans. I really dislike what they can stand for and what nonsense can come out of them. I dislike the way they have a chance to blur lines by people getting in because they told their buddy they're an alt and then suddenly they're in this clan and then miraculously said alt has all these positions in city or house. We all know it happens, and it's unfortunate, but the truth of the matter is it has always happened ever since Achaea (and every other IRE game) got some footing, people established their places as power-houses, and then kept the people they liked best closest. I mean, that's life for you. Even in the real world it's not unheard of for someone to get a promotion if the Boss likes them better, even if they're not as qualified.

    On the flip side of the downfalls that can come from OOC clans, I personally like knowing that just because Bob is an asshole IC doesn't mean he's not hilarious OOC and actually a pretty chill guy. Back in the day(tm) I used to get super stressed because people could be a right bag of dicks and seemed to grief for no reason. Now, if I know someone is like that IC, but happen to be friends with them OOC, it takes some of that edge off. Does that mean my character is going to act differently toward them IC? No. Not a chance. But that's what role-play is for. It's just as much on the shoulders of the individuals who participate in OOC clans to be able to separate as anything else, and to keep up the consistency of their own characters. You can't really police what other people do with theirs, but you can with yourself.
    IsrayhlSena
  • OmorOmor Member Posts: 756 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    While we're talking about it can I get an invite to TMC or...
    Omor Ceberek - Targossas

    got gud
  • KryptonKrypton shi-KhurenaMember Posts: 1,968 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Daeir said:
    People seem.. unmotivated to bring the world sphere alive as it once was in the past, and I really don't understand why. Is OOC communication to blame for it? I really don't know.
    There being too much to do now is to blame.

    People have so many different activities they can pursue now, and they either outright enjoy these things much more than the large-world central conflict -- or these activities distract them away from it.

    Seafaring. The explosion of new mercantile activities (mining, new crafts & tradeskills, etc.). Collecting talismans. You name it.

    A decade ago, there was nothing to do but bashing, factional RP/conflict, and global events.
    (Mhaldor): Herenicus says, "Apologies, I am in-and-out of hold with Verizon wireless customer service."
    SobriquetVesiosAereidhnaZahan
  • VesiosVesios Member Posts: 243 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    edited January 16
    So if we were to summarize the various reasons and attempt to get a greater picture:
    • There's a lot of old blood in Achaea and some folks have been around for a decade or more at this point. It isn't unusual for the major players, whether they be in positions of power or otherwise, to have heard of each other and at least be acquaintances on an OOC level. OOC clans and "cliques" compound and exacerbate this issue as they give said players a means to communicate easily.
    • Interacting with each other on an OOC basis hurts IC interaction and roleplay becomes harder when you can put a face (or personality, in this case) to the person behind the character. It adds bias to otherwise impersonal roleplay and effects how you behave around that person, if only slightly.
    • Bouncing off the two previous points, it is very hard to discuss combat, a major facet of the game world, in any IC, roleplay-friendly manner due to the prevalence of automated systems and scripts. Trying to keep things in-character when communicating combat's intricacies to a fresh-faced newbie is an exercise in frustration. On top of this, many of the well-known combatants have been on the top of the combat world for years at minimum, and fighting against their counterparts for so long means they almost certainly know and communicate with each other on some OOC level, whether it be to just joke around or to communicate and organize raiding events to keep up activity levels and interest.
    • An offset of automated combat: everyone has defenses up all the time. This is a minor point and mostly relates to deafness, but when was the last time you heard someone shouting? A great way to spread and announce your beliefs and views, a great boon to immersion and a fantastic way to impress the fresh newbies with the flavor text, and chances are a good 90% of the population would never even hear you... because they're always deaf and blind and interact with the world through mindseye.
    • Many Divine are dormant, and those that are active seem content to stay within their respective factions, cities and orders. There is very little communication with the outside world and most Divine, it seems, are content to deliver their messages through their Order's members, or more rarely the city they patron.
    • The Achaean world is much, much larger than it was originally. Two continents, multiple islands, several planes of existence and all sorts of activities to participate in make for an easy and effective way to spread out an already-small playerbase and limit interaction between parties. It is very easy to not participate and remove yourself from worldly affairs, but to do the opposite requires a concerted effort from multiple interested parties.
    • Last but not least, and I think this is the most important point: Achaea is a MUD. I think it should be stressed that we're playing a MUD in the year 2017, a time when new big-budget games sport high-definition graphics, fantastic sound quality and pre-rendered cutscenes. We are very niche, to say the least. We don't get much new blood here and it's very hard to retain those that do show up due to how many differences there are between a MUD and what they're probably used to playing. This results in either a static or dwindling population, as we're all probably on the older side and have real life responsibilities that come before Achaea. It is very hard to replace those of us that do go dormant, and coupled with all of the above points, it becomes harder and harder to maintain life on the immersion front and "wow" new players, who probably need that one event to charge their imaginations and act as the "push" that keeps them coming back for more. On top of this, IRE is a business, and due to the naturally smaller population and incredibly difficult growing pains, prices are comparatively expensive and promotions and other credit-related events are needed to (understandably) maintain the bottom line - all of which hurts immersion and roleplay even more.
    As for solutions: I agree with @Nataliia here. Be the change you want to see in the world. Try to put aside that cynicism that plagues us all, the little voice in your head that says "that newbie you're devoting all your attention to will be gone next week and you'll never see them again, stop trying", if only for a moment. Try to impress that novice with your free emoting skills, or hold a city-wide sermon on your faction's beliefs to improve city bonds. If you keep wishing for it to happen, for someone to pick up the torch and become the next great lecturer, chances are it'll never happen. Go for it!
    Liyane
  • ShirszaeShirszae Caer WitrinMember Posts: 2,722 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited January 16
    Shouting goes through deafness now. Just felt like I'd point that out. If you have SHOUTSON you will hear anyone who shouts in the same plane as you.

    And you won't understand the cause of your grief...

    image

    ...But you'll always follow the voices beneath.

    VesiosAereidhna
Sign In to Comment.