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Classleads

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  • AsmodronAsmodron Member Posts: 1,987 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited January 14
    Xaden said:
    * When you pull someone out of PHASE with an EYE sigil, they will now be knocked off balance.


    Something I was considering. Doesnt this mean that every shop keeper, or private home owner, or whathaveyou, can now completely nullify anyone following them into a location by throwing an eye sigil every time?


    Before, while it was possible to detect someone, it still didnt cancel the follow, and people were generally lax about throwing and checking. Now...they can just have an alias to constantly throw an eye sigil before entering, and they can be sure the serpent cant follow because they are off-balance.
  • TahquilTahquil Member Posts: 3,450 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    ... If that shopkeeper or home owner knows how to fight , yes. 

    Mostly I see this as pulling the serrp out of phase then standing together awkwardly for a while as the shopkeeper tries to bluster and bully the serpent as they wat for the city to be alerted and form a party to come deal with it if they combatants care.
  • AegothAegoth Member Posts: 1,906 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Or the shopkeeper dies, since throwing an eye sigil is an aggressive action towards the serpent, and the serpent goes home with a trophy.
    Shayde
  • AhmetAhmet Wherever I wanna beMember Posts: 2,860 @ - Epic Achaean
    @Tahquil hes saying, now that eye knocks off balance, you can just add throw eye to the start of your commands to enter wherever and you dont even have to verify that it didnt catch anyone. They cant follow because theyre off balance.
    Huh. Neat.
  • AtalkezAtalkez Member Posts: 3,494 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    So how is that an issue?

    If they throw the eye to begin with, how often will they continue inside after revealing someone? My bet is extremely extremely low.


    You hug Aurora compassionately.
  • AhmetAhmet Wherever I wanna beMember Posts: 2,860 @ - Epic Achaean
    edited January 14
    It's very rare, but it happens. The mild heart attacks these moments induce are really quite enjoyable, after the fact. The issue is that the person being followed can make it mechanically impossible for a phased person to follow them without any thought whatsoever, which wasn't something that was available previously (without some serious drawbacks, and only available to a small number of classes). 

    ETA: Not to mention, no more leaving room to wait for eye sigil and then entering/following afterwards, since there's no drawback to doing it all at once.
    Huh. Neat.
  • AtalkezAtalkez Member Posts: 3,494 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Ahmet said:
    It's very rare, but it happens. The mild heart attacks these moments induce are really quite enjoyable, after the fact. The issue is that the person being followed can make it mechanically impossible for a phased person to follow them without any thought whatsoever, which wasn't something that was available previously (without some serious drawbacks, and only available to a small number of classes). 

    ETA: Not to mention, no more leaving room to wait for eye sigil and then entering/following afterwards, since there's no drawback to doing it all at once.
    Feel like this is a better route than previous.

    If they take the time to throw and eye, they shouldn't have to worry about extra tiny factors like a serpent walking in and following afterwards, imo. If they take the time to throw and eye, then they're obviously conscientious of security.

    Not seeing why this action being removed is somehow unfair to anyone.


    You hug Aurora compassionately.
    Liyane
  • AhmetAhmet Wherever I wanna beMember Posts: 2,860 @ - Epic Achaean
    It's not -just- shop robbing though. What about breaking into househalls or temples?

    The steps that have been taken to make these places more and more impossible to get into may seem small, but they've really started adding up. Lets not encourage more, please. At the end of the day, you're taking a method of counterplay and turning it into a mindless addition to peoples' aliases, with zero consequences and zero way to play around it. Really doesn't seem like a good choice, but maybe that's just my personal biases talking, and I doubt it'll be reversed.
    Huh. Neat.
  • AlrenaAlrena Member Posts: 436 @ - Epic Achaean
    Ahmet said:
    It's not -just- shop robbing though. What about breaking into househalls or temples?

    The steps that have been taken to make these places more and more impossible to get into may seem small, but they've really started adding up. Lets not encourage more, please. At the end of the day, you're taking a method of counterplay and turning it into a mindless addition to peoples' aliases, with zero consequences and zero way to play around it. Really doesn't seem like a good choice, but maybe that's just my personal biases talking, and I doubt it'll be reversed.
    Man, spoken like someone who's never had to fight an invading raid group in a househall. There is nothing fun about that. There are still ways to break in. People still have to actually throw the eye. Then there is still a ton of other things you can do. People tossing an eye has always been good security. 
    image
  • AhmetAhmet Wherever I wanna beMember Posts: 2,860 @ - Epic Achaean
    I have a feeling you have little to no experience actually trying to break into these places. Three RL months of spamming "farsee x" and swapping await while phased in enemy territory at every chance you get and still not getting anything really puts things in perspective.
    Huh. Neat.
    Shayde
  • AhmetAhmet Wherever I wanna beMember Posts: 2,860 @ - Epic Achaean
    edited January 14
    @Alrena I can guarantee you there's at least five temples that are physically impossible to break into if their members use eye/search.

    ETA: Unless you count puppet travel, which doesn't count. But aside from that one particular skill which takes lots of prep, makes people avoid going into temples, usually gets you killed anyway, and decays in a day, physically impossible.
    Huh. Neat.
  • AlrenaAlrena Member Posts: 436 @ - Epic Achaean
    If the order members are all competent and careful, any temple becomes impossible to break into. Breaking in relies on your target being afk, careless or helping you. This change doesn't make a difference. If people tosses an eye then you wouldn't be getting in anyhow.
    image
  • AhmetAhmet Wherever I wanna beMember Posts: 2,860 @ - Epic Achaean
    Alrena said:
    If the order members are all competent and careful, any temple becomes impossible to break into.
    This is entirely false.
    Huh. Neat.
  • TahquilTahquil Member Posts: 3,450 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    But, but But... explorers rank!
    AhmetShayde
  • SarathaiSarathai Member Posts: 2,116 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Ahmet said:
    I can guarantee you there's at least five temples that are physically impossible to break into if their members use eye/search.
    Maybe it might be about less than just trespassing and include cultivating the proper relationships so as to be permitted inside them? To be fair, I've got Babel's temple explored because somebody got careless, but I think the principle is still valid.
    - (Eleusis): Ellodin says, "The Fissure of Echoes is Sarathai's happy place."
    - With sharp, crackling tones, Kyrra tells you, "The ladies must love you immensely."
    - (Eleusian Ranger Techs): Savira says, "Most of the hard stuff seem to have this built in code like: If adventurer_hitting_me = "Sarathai" then send("terminate and selfdestruct")."
    - (OOC Clan): Makarios says, "Serve well and perish."



    TahquilShirszaeShayde
  • AhmetAhmet Wherever I wanna beMember Posts: 2,860 @ - Epic Achaean
    @Sarathai I'd agree with you on the general point, sure, but there's some cases when that's just not applicable. Some cases where there's only one person who has access to the temple (who's active anyways). Or where by forging strong relations with one group you get rejected by another. Or if the Patron of the temple in question scares everyone shitless *cough*Sartan*cough*. I can tell you right now (and this applies to several, but I'm using this as an example), Ahmet will never be willingly allowed into Sartan's temple. Ever. It simply isn't going to happen. And if it does, whoopee. I get to do it ten more times. And then again for househalls. And for city council areas. Etc etc. I'm not saying that's not a valid way of going about it, but it shouldn't be the -only- way.

    I'm not going to encourage the thread to keep filling up with more exploration discussion. Much as I love to discuss, it's a debate not worth having and it's not something that this thread needs to be clogged with. At least, I'm not going to clog it any more.

    Back to arguing which classes are OP and such. Chop chop.
    Huh. Neat.
  • SobriquetSobriquet Member Posts: 1,237 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Nazihk said:
    I am torn on this matter, but in the end my basic feeling is that shop robbing doesn't add enough to the game to make it something that should really be supported. The only thing it really does is let a few people make a large profit off of other people being inattentive, and it's one of the huge "fuck this game, I'm done" moments.
    I emptied the Shadowsnakes house shop and had a great time RP'ing that. Sure, I made upwards of 500k out of it but they got their money's worth in hunting me.

    i emptied a shop in hashan and we used the buy / give back RP to set up a secret trade deal with an enemy.

    There are certainly benefits to shop theft when done right. 
    image
    AlbelTreyShayde
  • AsmodronAsmodron Member Posts: 1,987 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited January 15
    You all seem to be attacking Ahmet on the basis of negative experiences you have had concerning serpents that snuck in. You are all forgetting the 1 paramount thing: If ever a serpent got it, it is fully the target's fault for not being cautious or for being lax.


    A serpent can never get in unless you let him in, which was always possible by checking with an eye sigil.


    Why is it different now? It is simple, it is based on laziness. People would originally let down their guard and become lazy on the basis that they opt, just for 'this' time, not to throw an eye sigil and check before entering. It is basically akin to wearing a condom, just 'this' time risk it out of sheer laziness or ran out, and boom, ya doomed. You think this small, but it really was the basis of careless people letting a serpent in.

    Now? Now everyone can basically just do this...:

    Alias set EnterTemple ETE wield eye/throw eye at ground/<random command to enter the location>

    or for homes:

    Alias set EnterHOUSE EHO wield eye/throw eye at ground/get key from pack/unlock <direction>/ <direction to walk>


    They could even go a step further and make a trigger to call out to the city when they unphase someone.

    Trigger: X is pulled back into phase with reality!
    send: CT/PT X is pulled out of phase at my location!


    They basically no longer need to 'check' for a serpent if they choose to do so, they can basically draw a blind eye and use 1 simple command to completely thwart a serpent's attempt from henceforth. The only way this can now possible work is if they ran out of eye sigils...

    Theft and subterfuge (the concept, not the ability) have already been nerfed to the point of child's play, and this basically will put the nail in the coffin. While I know some people feel their house halls and temples are far too blessed to have nasty culprits within, as well as the idea of seeing their house custom items sold on the blackmarket is mortifying, the fact of the matter is that it added a sense of adventure and danger, and made people understand the importance of trying to protect 'sacred' grounds. Now..laziness for security will reach an all-time high.


    I get it, having someone steal from a stockroom is spiritually breaking, but there are far better alternatives than to completely neutralize all forms of shadowing. Househalls can already not be prismed into, and now trying to sneak in is near impossible, additionally attempting to even follow to guarded locations will be impossible. I am not even bringing up the point of being unphased in a city with guards in your room is now basically a death sentence for the serpent...what is the reward though if trying to follow someone to a special location is impossible?


    BadeAlbelShayde
  • KafzielKafziel Member Posts: 642 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    As opposed to hitting your eye alias then waiting half a second to enter when it doesn't pull anyone out of phase?

    Shop theft basically died with in-game command separator, this doesn't really make much of a difference.
    SenoskeTrey
  • AquilAquil Member Posts: 269 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Laziness on people's part will get you in. With in game separator I literally do in the adjacent room: eye|leap|codeword. No reason people should ever of gotten into private places, and this is probably a balance change for when people heavily leaned on backstab or unphase and instant duanathar.

    More on topic, though:

    The classleads that still aren't approved or rejected, is that just @Makarios being undecided on what to do with them as of yet?
  • AntoniusAntonius Member Posts: 3,833 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Generally means they're still being considered and/or being investigated, though no guarantee they'll ever get a decision. Usually there's some that will sit untouched until the next round opens up.
  • MakariosMakarios Administrator Posts: 1,243 Achaean staff
    Generally, they're left until after the others are finished to keep things moving while I ponder them. I find it works better than waiting to decide on them all at once and holding up the whole process unnecessarily.
    AhmetValaria
  • KythraKythra Member Posts: 131 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited April 4
    Eyy, my thread is relevant again! 
    Again, keep it civil. We all have opinions, some have stronger opinions than others, but no shaming or bringing up a classlead here just to intently flame it.

    I feel like DW is going to go through another round of attempted nerfs, but I feel like the newest nerf(?) to it really cut the strong from the weak.

    I'm mostly hoping these classleads will focus on some affliction versus prep kind of things. But maybe I'm too optimistic.
  • AegothAegoth Member Posts: 1,906 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    i agree. I hope prep classes will finally be able to overcome the insurmountable affliction pressure of aff classes
    KythraAralayaAntidas
  • AralayaAralaya Member Posts: 213 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Please, I just wanna kill things
  • KryptonKrypton shi-KhurenaMember Posts: 1,686 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Ahh, that good ol' Veil classlead, right on schedule.
    (Mhaldor): Herenicus says, "Apologies, I am in-and-out of hold with Verizon wireless customer service."
    AsmodronSarathai
  • FrederichFrederich Member Posts: 885 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    Veils.  Delete'em.
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