Classleads

Solnir

Amen to Fore Lords still not being there. I believe in you guys, and will hold strong hoping for something good.

Farrah

Proficy said:

Farrah said:

It's a fork because technically you can stop pulp by not applying to anything but head until the DWB wastes momentum on an assault or something (which is what I used to do when you played runie against me) but if you don't apply to legs, the DWB can just doublewhirl arms and vivi, hence going from a very difficult to stop setup to an unstoppable one.

Most prep classes cannot 100% unstoppably kill, no, and requiring five body parts prepped as DWB is not exactly a long, drawn-out prep. The class preps quickly.

You know better than ANYONE that if you get caught pre applying against any prep class as soon as they notice. Your going to die another route... I don't see how this is any different. Still not a fork at all just the aggressor planning well ahead.

And against certain classes it is terribly long. Some people with good parrying and affection pressure can get a timed reset.

I'm beginning to think you just don't understand the entire concept of a fork. I don't pre-apply. I just hold applies. Though, as Mindshell pointed out, that technically isn't good enough defense either. If your argument is that the vivi fork doesn't happen because pulp is guaranteed without it, I guess you're right, but it doesn't help your case that DWB isn't OP - it makes it worse!

I think your argument that all prep classes are equally strong is disingenuous when you refuse to even fight as anything but DWB anymore (despite having other classes/specs and even arties for them).

Driden

Personally I would like to see DWB put in a position where it has two kill paths and gets to them the same way but can only pick one and you are forced to guess what the aggressor is going for. If your right you set them back and survive. If your wrong then thats it for you. something like that anywho. Be kinda fun to atleast try out i think. 

Leffe

Makarios said:

On damage classes in general. Damage classes are -extremely- hard to get right. Frankly, I've not seen any IRE game get this quite right yet, us included. Fire lords took ~40% of the Elemental Lord dev time and they're still not there, so this is very tough. Its something we are constantly working on and it is my hope we will crack this eventually.

Some of the best implementations of damage classes that I've seen over the years in IRE have been where the damage is not sustained over time, but bursted based on prep, bridging or forks.

People are telling me that you've been getting it better than most classes in the other games though, so that's comforting.

Proficy

Farrah said:

Proficy said:

Farrah said:

It's a fork because technically you can stop pulp by not applying to anything but head until the DWB wastes momentum on an assault or something (which is what I used to do when you played runie against me) but if you don't apply to legs, the DWB can just doublewhirl arms and vivi, hence going from a very difficult to stop setup to an unstoppable one.

Most prep classes cannot 100% unstoppably kill, no, and requiring five body parts prepped as DWB is not exactly a long, drawn-out prep. The class preps quickly.

You know better than ANYONE that if you get caught pre applying against any prep class as soon as they notice. Your going to die another route... I don't see how this is any different. Still not a fork at all just the aggressor planning well ahead.

And against certain classes it is terribly long. Some people with good parrying and affection pressure can get a timed reset.

I'm beginning to think you just don't understand the entire concept of a fork. I don't pre-apply. I just hold applies. Though, as Mindshell pointed out, that technically isn't good enough defense either. If your argument is that the vivi fork doesn't happen because pulp is guaranteed without it, I guess you're right, but it doesn't help your case that DWB isn't OP - it makes it worse!

I think your argument that all prep classes are equally strong is disingenuous when you refuse to even fight as anything but DWB anymore (despite having other classes/specs and even arties for them).

100% irrelevent.. I monked way more than anything before my computer crashed.. knight was the first system I worked on getting back up since it covered two of my classes... still haven't finished monk, or even really worked on alchemy yet... only reason that's what I  use mostly, and I am in dual blunt cause it bashes better than cutting imo.

And a fork, is when you START a single path and then have options in which will get you to a single endpoint (in this conext).. which as I said is not the case... as you can PREP for both. But once you start with that first hit your path is committed.

If you have all 5 limbs prepped, and I hit head first.. obviously going for vivi, as there is NO way to pull off the pulp beginning in that manner unless the target sits there doing absolutely nothing with no aura.
If I begin with any other limb, the the pulp is more than likely the goal.

No fork, clear concise path set..... words mean things

Klendathu

Proficy said:

Farrah said:

Proficy said:

Farrah said:

It's a fork because technically you can stop pulp by not applying to anything but head until the DWB wastes momentum on an assault or something (which is what I used to do when you played runie against me) but if you don't apply to legs, the DWB can just doublewhirl arms and vivi, hence going from a very difficult to stop setup to an unstoppable one.

Most prep classes cannot 100% unstoppably kill, no, and requiring five body parts prepped as DWB is not exactly a long, drawn-out prep. The class preps quickly.

You know better than ANYONE that if you get caught pre applying against any prep class as soon as they notice. Your going to die another route... I don't see how this is any different. Still not a fork at all just the aggressor planning well ahead.

And against certain classes it is terribly long. Some people with good parrying and affection pressure can get a timed reset.

I'm beginning to think you just don't understand the entire concept of a fork. I don't pre-apply. I just hold applies. Though, as Mindshell pointed out, that technically isn't good enough defense either. If your argument is that the vivi fork doesn't happen because pulp is guaranteed without it, I guess you're right, but it doesn't help your case that DWB isn't OP - it makes it worse!

I think your argument that all prep classes are equally strong is disingenuous when you refuse to even fight as anything but DWB anymore (despite having other classes/specs and even arties for them).

100% irrelevent.. I monked way more than anything before my computer crashed.. knight was the first system I worked on getting back up since it covered two of my classes... still haven't finished monk, or even really worked on alchemy yet... only reason that's what I  use mostly, and I am in dual blunt cause it bashes better than cutting imo.

And a fork, is when you START a single path and then have options in which will get you to a single endpoint (in this conext).. which as I said is not the case... as you can PREP for both. But once you start with that first hit your path is committed.

If you have all 5 limbs prepped, and I hit head first.. obviously going for vivi, as there is NO way to pull off the pulp beginning in that manner unless the target sits there doing absolutely nothing with no aura.
If I begin with any other limb, the the pulp is more than likely the goal.

No fork, clear concise path set..... words mean things

If your prep is common with options later on, then there's a fork. Two different start points converging is not a fork. Words mean things. :P

Caelan

Klendathu said:

If your prep is common with options later on, then there's a fork. Two different start points converging is not a fork. Words mean things. :P

Your rong.

Nazihk

Proficy said:

And a fork, is when you START a single path and then have options in which will get you to a single endpoint (in this conext).. which as I said is not the case... as you can PREP for both. But once you start with that first hit your path is committed.

No. A fork is a term from chess, and it refers to this kind of scenario here:


Right there, the black knight has the white queen and rook forked; no matter what the white player does, it's going to lose one of those pieces. There are two endpoints, both of them suck for white, and they can only avoid one of them.

The fork that Farrah is talking about is a similar situation, where avoiding the pulp walks into a vivisect and avoiding the vivisect walks into a pulp. 

Leviticus

Let's talk about intone tooros being on voice balance and being used with the degeneration capstone and cull for insane amounts of damage? (sensi, shadow, attune, cull, tooros) stupid dumb.

Antonius

Proficy said:

Farrah said:

Proficy said:

Farrah said:

It's a fork because technically you can stop pulp by not applying to anything but head until the DWB wastes momentum on an assault or something (which is what I used to do when you played runie against me) but if you don't apply to legs, the DWB can just doublewhirl arms and vivi, hence going from a very difficult to stop setup to an unstoppable one.

Most prep classes cannot 100% unstoppably kill, no, and requiring five body parts prepped as DWB is not exactly a long, drawn-out prep. The class preps quickly.

You know better than ANYONE that if you get caught pre applying against any prep class as soon as they notice. Your going to die another route... I don't see how this is any different. Still not a fork at all just the aggressor planning well ahead.

And against certain classes it is terribly long. Some people with good parrying and affection pressure can get a timed reset.

I'm beginning to think you just don't understand the entire concept of a fork. I don't pre-apply. I just hold applies. Though, as Mindshell pointed out, that technically isn't good enough defense either. If your argument is that the vivi fork doesn't happen because pulp is guaranteed without it, I guess you're right, but it doesn't help your case that DWB isn't OP - it makes it worse!

I think your argument that all prep classes are equally strong is disingenuous when you refuse to even fight as anything but DWB anymore (despite having other classes/specs and even arties for them).

100% irrelevent.. I monked way more than anything before my computer crashed.. knight was the first system I worked on getting back up since it covered two of my classes... still haven't finished monk, or even really worked on alchemy yet... only reason that's what I  use mostly, and I am in dual blunt cause it bashes better than cutting imo.

And a fork, is when you START a single path and then have options in which will get you to a single endpoint (in this conext).. which as I said is not the case... as you can PREP for both. But once you start with that first hit your path is committed.

If you have all 5 limbs prepped, and I hit head first.. obviously going for vivi, as there is NO way to pull off the pulp beginning in that manner unless the target sits there doing absolutely nothing with no aura.
If I begin with any other limb, the the pulp is more than likely the goal.

No fork, clear concise path set..... words mean things

A fork is when the execution for two different kills starts the same way, then diverges later on depending on what the opponent does.

Here's a dual blunt Infernal example. We'll pretend that ignoring legs to apply to head actually lets you avoid pulp, and that the target has a good enough ping that you can't just vivisect no matter what.

Prep both legs, both arms and head.

Break both legs and prone.

Opponent applies to legs -> Pulp route (break head, assault, pulp)
Opponent doesn't apply to legs -> Vivisect route (break arms, vivisect)

Those two bolded lines are where your fork happens, depending on what your opponent does in response to that first doublewhirl. There's plenty of time to react, so you don't even need to know what they're going to do in advance.

Pyori

Proficy said:

If you have all 5 limbs prepped, and I hit head first.. obviously going for vivi

Did you forget the part where DWB can hit two different limbs at once?

Klendathu

Leviticus said:

Let's talk about intone tooros being on voice balance and being used with the degeneration capstone and cull for insane amounts of damage? (sensi, shadow, attune, cull, tooros) stupid dumb.

Was that the working title of Salt 'n' Pepa's late eighties single?

Farrah

Tooros/capstone is the end of a momentum chain. You prevent it by stopping them from getting there and holding it long enough to kill you. Sticking sensitivity, in particular, on top of the degen affs, takes a reasonable amount of time.

Proficy said:

Farrah said:

Proficy said:

Farrah said:

It's a fork because technically you can stop pulp by not applying to anything but head until the DWB wastes momentum on an assault or something (which is what I used to do when you played runie against me) but if you don't apply to legs, the DWB can just doublewhirl arms and vivi, hence going from a very difficult to stop setup to an unstoppable one.

Most prep classes cannot 100% unstoppably kill, no, and requiring five body parts prepped as DWB is not exactly a long, drawn-out prep. The class preps quickly.

You know better than ANYONE that if you get caught pre applying against any prep class as soon as they notice. Your going to die another route... I don't see how this is any different. Still not a fork at all just the aggressor planning well ahead.

And against certain classes it is terribly long. Some people with good parrying and affection pressure can get a timed reset.

I'm beginning to think you just don't understand the entire concept of a fork. I don't pre-apply. I just hold applies. Though, as Mindshell pointed out, that technically isn't good enough defense either. If your argument is that the vivi fork doesn't happen because pulp is guaranteed without it, I guess you're right, but it doesn't help your case that DWB isn't OP - it makes it worse!

I think your argument that all prep classes are equally strong is disingenuous when you refuse to even fight as anything but DWB anymore (despite having other classes/specs and even arties for them).

100% irrelevent.. I monked way more than anything before my computer crashed.. knight was the first system I worked on getting back up since it covered two of my classes... still haven't finished monk, or even really worked on alchemy yet... only reason that's what I  use mostly, and I am in dual blunt cause it bashes better than cutting imo.

And a fork, is when you START a single path and then have options in which will get you to a single endpoint (in this conext).. which as I said is not the case... as you can PREP for both. But once you start with that first hit your path is committed.

If you have all 5 limbs prepped, and I hit head first.. obviously going for vivi, as there is NO way to pull off the pulp beginning in that manner unless the target sits there doing absolutely nothing with no aura.
If I begin with any other limb, the the pulp is more than likely the goal.

No fork, clear concise path set..... words mean things

You're ignoring that the counter to the vivisect setup is to not cure the head break and the counter to the pulp setup is to not cure the leg break. If you start with leg breaks and I don't apply (to save salve bal for head to try to avoid pulp), you can absolutely fork into a vivisect. You're being confused by the fact that DWB is so insanely over tuned that applying at all gets you killed. You don't need to fork at all because pulp is unstoppable even without forking into vivi, and vivi is already unstoppable unless they spam mending to finish curing a limb faster than serverside will (leg/leg, arm/arm alone, with no pre-head break, beats serverside ping, as I discovered fighting you, since I ignore your pre head breaks!).

Antonius

Leviticus said:

Let's talk about intone tooros being on voice balance and being used with the degeneration capstone and cull for insane amounts of damage? (sensi, shadow, attune, cull, tooros) stupid dumb.

Sure! What exactly do you want to talk about? They can reset the fight after gaining shadow without losing that progress, but then they need a minimum amount of momentum to both get the necessary afflictions and health low enough that the burst hit will actually kill you. Momentum classes are designed to kill you if you let them get enough unhindered offense in, and plenty of momentum classes will kill you faster than DW's burst damage route.

Leviticus

What momentum classes can kill me faster than DW burst damage route that has the same utility as DW? I am curious. 

Antonius

Why do you think that's even a relevant question? Hint: Classes aren't intentionally made unable to kill just because they have more utility.

Aegoth

Yea, DW is fairly insane, and the defending arguments for keeping it as powerful as is are rather weak and transpatent. DW damage takes very little time to max out, and with smart application of timeloop and prio abuse, reaching instill capstones is an effort that takes a matter of seconds. Anyone who is even partially combat savvy can get a shadow in 3-4 balances tops and transition easily into a high damage execute. Couple this with their powerful aff+room hindering tools, as well as free offbalance passive afflictions (that hit every 3-5s, i forgot exactly), and you have a recipe for disaster. DW is probably the one class that I could justify sweeping nerfs to, and not feel guilty. 

At the end of the day.. when you have midbies who generally have no clue about combat able to be a large threat all of a sudden (see: any Cyrenian DW) just by being able to mash one attack macro (curare/degen lols), then the class is too powerful

Dunn

Classleads just closed. 

Solnir

as well as free offbalance passive afflictions (that hit every 3-5s, i forgot exactly),

10s tick on attune

Aegoth

It's actually 8s, just tested with alrena. Thats still hefty aff pressure with all their other tools

Aralaya

There are plenty of ways to run away from a DW, thus resetting what they were doing and making them have to redo everything.

Farrah

Aegoth said:

Yea, DW is fairly insane, and the defending arguments for keeping it as powerful as is are rather weak and transpatent. DW damage takes very little time to max out, and with smart application of timeloop and prio abuse, reaching instill capstones is an effort that takes a matter of seconds. Anyone who is even partially combat savvy can get a shadow in 3-4 balances tops and transition easily into a high damage execute. Couple this with their powerful aff+room hindering tools, as well as free offbalance passive afflictions (that hit every 3-5s, i forgot exactly), and you have a recipe for disaster. DW is probably the one class that I could justify sweeping nerfs to, and not feel guilty. 

At the end of the day.. when you have midbies who generally have no clue about combat able to be a large threat all of a sudden (see: any Cyrenian DW) just by being able to mash one attack macro (curare/degen lols), then the class is too powerful

As someone who has played most momentum classes competitively, I can confidently say that DW isn't remotely insane or even "the best." You're confusing accessibility with power. It's easy to use for people who don't know combat as well, but still ultimately kills slower than many classes. It has a lot of fun perks that make up for this, and I don't consider it underpowered, but there's no question to me that it's not overpowered, either, whereas other class can be more questionable in some situations.

Aegoth

Aralaya said:

There are plenty of ways to run away from a DW, thus resetting what they were doing and making them have to redo everything.

This is severely misleading. DW can stick dizziness/paralyse, as well as use distort and preempt. Heila is also a great tool to stop people spamming fly, since it uses voice balance. Depthswalker is one of the most difficult classes to escape from, if the DW is not asleep at their keyboard

Driden

dor touch shield and depthswalker cant kill you. Barring you dont do this when your already super deep in fucked land. Treat getting your shadow taken as both min health and mana insta. if your a prep class just prep them while looping a small kelp stack with asthma. Then letting rng of paralysis and slickness further hinder them. you wont die. Shrug. 

These are also the reasons I quit the class despite loving the theme and it being a great ambush class. This is what most people did to destroy all my pressure or keep me from ever building any at all. Jhui's favorite tactic was to illusion shielding when he shield turtled in between prep as monk. Which I shamelessly stole for fighting DW. 

Edit - i wanted to say more.  

Pyori

Aegoth said:

Aralaya said:

There are plenty of ways to run away from a DW, thus resetting what they were doing and making them have to redo everything.

This is severely misleading. DW can stick dizziness/paralyse, as well as use distort and preempt. Heila is also a great tool to stop people spamming fly, since it uses voice balance. Depthswalker is one of the most difficult classes to escape from, if the DW is not asleep at their keyboard

Depending on how they use preempt, yes. Otherwise they're not really any harder than virtually any other momentum class... Aralaya did seem to forget that people can chase, if you leave the room, thus not actually resetting anything. DW can't "easily stick" dizziness.

Aegoth

Ok and? DOR shield with rebounding shuts down a looooot of classes too. Serpent, magi, dwb, etc. Thats the nature of turtling.. so what exactly is your point?

Aralaya

Aegoth said:

Aralaya said:

There are plenty of ways to run away from a DW, thus resetting what they were doing and making them have to redo everything.

This is severely misleading. DW can stick dizziness/paralyse, as well as use distort and preempt. Heila is also a great tool to stop people spamming fly, since it uses voice balance. Depthswalker is one of the most difficult classes to escape from, if the DW is not asleep at their keyboard

Dash and Gallop will get you away from preempt.
Flying also stops preempt.
I've rarely seen Heila (mostly seen a mix of conquest, augmentation, and Dominion) although I guess you'd still have to worry about tentacle tattoo if they don't have the word.
As with every other room hinder, you can tumble out of it.

Pyori

Driden said:

dor touch shield and depthswalker cant kill you.

This is about as true as saying 'dor touch shield and serpents cant kill you' or 'dor curseward and shaman cant kill you'

That is to say, it's not true at all.

Aegoth

Can't dash/gallop if dizzy iirc (this might be wrong). Def can't leap while dizzy.. def can't escape paralysed. Use heila more to stop fliers, since it doesnt slow down your offence at all. Preempt goes through tumble and walls. Its not the fault of the class of you aren't using abilities to make escape harder. All classes have to deal with these escapes, DW just has WAY more tools to deal with them more efficiently. Tell me what other class follows through evade?

Aralaya

It's not the fault of the class if you suck at playing against it either