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  • ProficyProficy Posts: 198Member ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Farrah said:
    Leviticus said:
    Two problems I see. The first I am also guilty of.

    1. People constantly speak about classes without ever playing them at a HIGH level. This results in changes going into effect that are either overbalanced or nerf classes unintentionally. Apostates don't have healthleech so your point is moot. Manaleech is used to lock. Apostate is considerably slowed by curseward (yes, well timed cursewards kill momentum, especially when that person is ATTACKING you back!), priority swaps and leaving the room (redeffing a room takes time). People theory craft too much without adding in the opponent sticking para/clumsy on you.


    Ironically, I am probably (?) the only one posting here who has actually played Apostate at the top tier. So I, at least, do know the practical situation of the class. 

    Re: DWB, you have to bear in mind that some of us on the defending side have spent just as much and still cannot survive DWB unless we play specific classes. That seems to counter your argument about how much you spend. Infernal DWB isn't survivable regardless of tankiness either, and clumsiness is pretty trivial to handle by simply slow prepping. This does create a balance issue imo.

    That's not to say I agree with you about artefact balancing either, but DWB isn't only destroying unartied people. Any light-armoured class is going to be crushed regardless of artefacts.
    Umm. I do remember you....... or someone like you being an apostate once..... but not top teir *duck*.... just saying, i do remember always resorting back to bard.....

    And regarding the highly controversial DwB class everyone knows so much about but no one "is" i will just ask, if not for the damage, what else does it have? It has access to what 3 afflictions that can be given two at a time but not even consistently and that have no real usefulness. It is purely a damage class that does acutally the same damage output as depthswalker per hit (even though that class can double and tripple afflict with the damage), with its upside to do a big damage producing finisher.
    I just dont see what all the talk is about. Sylvans can produce that same kind of damage output with there momenutm while still beong able to slow prep and lock as well.

    All that is being provided are problems, and not even valid ones. Try presenting solutions.
  • AtalkezAtalkez Posts: 4,627Member, Secret Squirrel @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Sylvan and DW aren’t killing you from that damage with no recourse. Once you go prone vs DwB, it’s over.

    Leviticus, no you cannot survive a Pulp Vivi fork. It is a 100% kill if you do it right.

    While people discussing may not have played it on live server, we’ve all tested nearly every class on the test server. No one is talking about nerfing the class into oblivion, but it shouldn’t be able to just roll through anyone he fights because he paid money. That’s not balance.

    Like Farrah said, some of us have paid the exact same as Proficy to be able to survive and still can’t. Proficy is the reason I dropped BM, when I nearly died to 4 flail combos in Mir inside my own city. It’s simply not a reasonable level of damage and continuing breaks.

    At the end of the day, no you don’t get to kill people because you spent money. Classes are going to continually be adjusted to be survivable and balanced, and it’s DwB’s turn for that.

    I do agree with Proficy on the point of it not having anything else. I never liked that the class only does damage and has no other real options. The problem is the interaction between damage and the kill setups. No reason for it to do that much damage while prepping or when the person is prone.


    You hug Aurora compassionately.
    Asmodron
  • AegothAegoth Posts: 2,404Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited April 15
    Calira said:
    Alrena said:
    First of, Apostate doesn't have healthleech, last I checked. Second, if you can stick manaleech, then you can get slickness and lock, so that's just part of the problem, not a solution.
    My mistake on the healthleech. I played Shaman for a while and should have double-checked Evileye, but that's beside the point. Apostate health/mana pressure isn't as strong as its locks are, but that doesn't mean that it's worthless, since these tools are largely passive and don't require any extra investment. It can force your opponent to take defensive steps when they otherwise wouldn't have to, or in extreme cases like Dragon, entirely forego using their primary affliction tool because it costs so much mana. Advantages like this can't be brushed off.
    Really not sure why you're trying to argue with a top-end apostate fighter here when you've never touched the class at her level. You might want to bow out of your armchair theorizing and let people who know that class better than you discuss how to balance it. You have this problem of theorizing about abilities and classes in a vacuum, and that's just not how it works in actual non-arena PK
    Minifie
  • CaliraCalira Posts: 492Member, Secret Squirrel ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited April 15
    Aegoth said:
    Really not sure why you're trying to argue with a top-end apostate fighter here when you've never touched the class at her level. You might want to bow out of your armchair theorizing and let people who know that class better than you discuss how to balance it. You have this problem of theorizing about abilities and classes in a vacuum, and that's just not how it works in actual non-arena PK
    I'm not arguing with her. I was clarifying my own statements that she seemed to misinterpret, owning up to a mistake, and making observations that parts of the class have merit even if they aren't the main focus. Apostate isn't exactly an unfathomable paradox to all but a select few, it's really straightforward and easy to see where it's strengths lie. This kind of immature calling-out is rude and unhelpful, but I'm perfectly happy to fight her out of the arena if that would stem this sort of irrelevant criticism.
    ShirszaeAerek
  • FarrahFarrah Posts: 1,835Member, Secret Squirrel @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Proficy said:
    Farrah said:
    Leviticus said:
    Two problems I see. The first I am also guilty of.

    1. People constantly speak about classes without ever playing them at a HIGH level. This results in changes going into effect that are either overbalanced or nerf classes unintentionally. Apostates don't have healthleech so your point is moot. Manaleech is used to lock. Apostate is considerably slowed by curseward (yes, well timed cursewards kill momentum, especially when that person is ATTACKING you back!), priority swaps and leaving the room (redeffing a room takes time). People theory craft too much without adding in the opponent sticking para/clumsy on you.


    Ironically, I am probably (?) the only one posting here who has actually played Apostate at the top tier. So I, at least, do know the practical situation of the class. 

    Re: DWB, you have to bear in mind that some of us on the defending side have spent just as much and still cannot survive DWB unless we play specific classes. That seems to counter your argument about how much you spend. Infernal DWB isn't survivable regardless of tankiness either, and clumsiness is pretty trivial to handle by simply slow prepping. This does create a balance issue imo.

    That's not to say I agree with you about artefact balancing either, but DWB isn't only destroying unartied people. Any light-armoured class is going to be crushed regardless of artefacts.
    Umm. I do remember you....... or someone like you being an apostate once..... but not top teir *duck*.... just saying, i do remember always resorting back to bard.....

    And regarding the highly controversial DwB class everyone knows so much about but no one "is" i will just ask, if not for the damage, what else does it have? It has access to what 3 afflictions that can be given two at a time but not even consistently and that have no real usefulness. It is purely a damage class that does acutally the same damage output as depthswalker per hit (even though that class can double and tripple afflict with the damage), with its upside to do a big damage producing finisher.
    I just dont see what all the talk is about. Sylvans can produce that same kind of damage output with there momenutm while still beong able to slow prep and lock as well.

    All that is being provided are problems, and not even valid ones. Try presenting solutions.

    You misremember then, since I barely ever played bard again after I picked up apostate. There was certainly a period of time I played bard, but there was also a period where I only played apostate.
    Dairon
  • AegothAegoth Posts: 2,404Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Autobotting against Alrena as a class that shuts Apo down will do nothing to elucidate you to the intricacies of the class. That you believe it is straightforward highlights exactly why you should not be theorizing about apostate in the first place. People have this tendancy to soapbox about classes they never play (I do sometimes too) and it really needs to stop
  • CaliraCalira Posts: 492Member, Secret Squirrel ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited April 15
    Aegoth said:
    Autobotting against Alrena as a class that shuts Apo down will do nothing to elucidate you to the intricacies of the class. That you believe it is straightforward highlights exactly why you should not be theorizing about apostate in the first place. People have this tendancy to soapbox about classes they never play (I do sometimes too) and it really needs to stop
    If the only thing I can do to free myself from this silly criticism is to play a factional class that I don't have access to, then kindly take a step back and reconsider your problem with what I've said. Address my words, as @Alrena has, don't hold me to impossible standards as a player.
  • AtalkezAtalkez Posts: 4,627Member, Secret Squirrel @@ - Legendary Achaean
    You don't have to play the class to understand how it works, what it's going for, how to defend against it, and where it struggles.


    You hug Aurora compassionately.
    Zheo
  • AegothAegoth Posts: 2,404Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited April 15
    Last I checked, Hashan can still go infernal/apo as long as you don't toe the (admittedly really thin) line. Have at it! If asking you to play a class to actually understand it is an "impossible standard" then idk what to say. Right now it's like me claiming to know the ins and outs of BM without having touched the class. Sure, you can have a mediocre, superficial understanding of the class, but to truly have a say in balancing factors (that aren't egregiously obvious like 5000dmg attacks), you actually need to spend time learning and playing the class under the duress of actual fights and multiple scenarios
  • LeviticusLeviticus Posts: 311Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Pyori said:
    Leviticus said:
    constantly see classes I have went be unplayable at the high level.

    No class is 'unplayable' at a high level. Do some take a lot more effort than others? Yes. Are the unplayable? No.

    Also help credits:
    Disclaimer:
    -----------
    Achaea is a functioning world, and while we guarantee you will not lose any of the credits you buy, no such guarantee can be provided for what you purchase with the credits themselves. Naturally, we wouldn't be in business very long if this happened frequently, but as it is a world, your actions have consequences, and the actions of others can result in consequences for you. It's this dynamism in the nature of the world that people enjoy about Achaea. Thus, it is possible that the perceived or real value of the things you purchase with credits, or your ability to use those things, may both rise and decline during the course of play.
    It very much is possible that artifacts are much stronger than they're intended to be, which don't get found out until particular people play around with them and prove just how ridiculous they are (hi torc, nobody misses you). This means they get nerfed, that's how combat balance is done. Just because you paid money, that doesn't mean the things paid for shouldn't be balanced to be more reasonable. That's just... Silly.

    @pyori
    BM. Go play it right now and go through the combat rankings with it. You can't. Take all the effort you want. When people can avoid brokenstar or just outright ignore it, you are in a pickle. Good luck missing on regular attacks on top of clumsiness.

     @Adrik
    I don't have a problem with gambling, I, along with a lot of other people, like to invest in games that I enjoy. I spent all that money over the last 12-13 years.

    I WANT more people to classlead their ideas, not less. Every single person has an idea or solution that may lead to great results. I am just stating that people need to put time into playing DwB Infernal in order to truly understand what is and is not possible/easy. You may see Proficy go around destroying people in DwB Infernal but you have no clue the time, resources and money he put into obtaining that level of play. Their is no one here that knows more about the pros and cons of DwB Infernal than Proficy because no one else plays it.

    My statement about playing them at a HIGH level is an ignorant, stupid and please disregard it. I truly believe everyone needs to classlead what they wish to see changed in the game rather than let "more knowledgeable" people classlead for them is what has been happening for a while. They may not have all the different points of view. Also Mak is human, I know it was a surprise to me too. My only problem is that people, including myself, tend to speak out of ignorance but never truly tested what they see as being a problem. Does Achaea have a public testing server? We need one to truly test these things. 


    @Farrah
    All true and I respect your viewpoints. I just like to remind people of things they may have forgotten or never experienced. I understand everything you stated. Does it need to be tweaked? Sure. But tweaking DwB has a consequence for three classes so it needs to be tested and reviewed. People who say DwB Infernal vivisect/pulp is unavoidable don't understand the requirements to do both. They are not as easy with the momentum as people think they are and both can be very telling and countered. 

    @Calira

    Deathaura takes balance. Daegger hunt takes balance. People forget about how FAST achaean combat is. 12 seconds and you can be locked. Yes, Apostates can pressure health and mana and make someone go defensive. I agree. Not as easily as you think they can though. Curseward, paralysis, clumsiness and running into different rooms are quite difficult to deal with. Apostate is in a good spot if Catheris can go through shield or they speed up Corrupt by a lot.  


  • FarrahFarrah Posts: 1,835Member, Secret Squirrel @@ - Legendary Achaean

    Deathaura is something you put up before the fight even starts. Since it's mobile, it's not really worth mentioning as a balance you have to spend. Daegger hunt is likewise actually free in combat now since it's usable off balance.

  • LeviticusLeviticus Posts: 311Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Dagger levitate is eq balance. Dagger hunt can be used off balance correct. Deathaura can be put up before the fight but if someone did that to me, I'd start as soon as it hit me.
  • FarrahFarrah Posts: 1,835Member, Secret Squirrel @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Leviticus said:
    Dagger levitate is eq balance. Dagger hunt can be used off balance correct. Deathaura can be put up before the fight but if someone did that to me, I'd start as soon as it hit me.

    Levitate is usable off balance as well. You never have to slow your offense for the daegger anymore. It can also be made balanceless with an artifact, which basically just lets you get hunt setup faster (rather than deadeyes/levitate, deadeyes/hunt, you can just do levitate/deadeyes/hunt).
  • LeviticusLeviticus Posts: 311Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Farrah said:
    Leviticus said:
    Dagger levitate is eq balance. Dagger hunt can be used off balance correct. Deathaura can be put up before the fight but if someone did that to me, I'd start as soon as it hit me.

    Levitate is usable off balance as well. You never have to slow your offense for the daegger anymore. It can also be made balanceless with an artifact, which basically just lets you get hunt setup faster (rather than deadeyes/levitate, deadeyes/hunt, you can just do levitate/deadeyes/hunt).
    You are a wealth of information. Thank you.

    Not many new players have the ability to purchase 400 credits for the daegger though. So two balances to get daegger hunt going. Deathaura before engagement isn't too bad. 
  • PyoriPyori Posts: 350Member ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    edited April 16
    Leviticus said:
    @pyori
    BM. Go play it right now and go through the combat rankings with it. You can't. Take all the effort you want. When people can avoid brokenstar or just outright ignore it, you are in a pickle. Good luck missing on regular attacks on top of clumsiness.
    Combat rankings has virtually never been a good source of what's good and what isn't. Particularly considering that a number of tactics aren't doable in the arena. Brokenstar isn't the only way a BM can kill people. Especially if they're artied.

  • ZheoZheo Posts: 17Member
    If clumsiness is the only way to counter dwb, its not clumsiness that needs to be nerfed?
  • ShirszaeShirszae Santo DomingoPosts: 2,967Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Zheo said:
    If clumsiness is the only way to counter dwb, its not clumsiness that needs to be nerfed?
    No  :scream:

    And you won't understand the cause of your grief...


    ...But you'll always follow the voices beneath.

  • PyoriPyori Posts: 350Member ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Aegoth said:
    Autobotting against Alrena as a class that shuts Apo down will do nothing to elucidate you to the intricacies of the class.
    Last I checked, Calira was Jester and Occultist... Neither of which "shut down" Apostate, if they're supposedly top-tier.

    I don't often see eye to eye with things she says, but comments like these don't really help anyone. Particularly when there's plenty of reasons someone can't/won't go and play X class. Doesn't mean they can't comment on the class.

    ShirszaeExelethril
  • TjayTjay Posts: 37Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Shouldn't this just be discussion for the current class leads listed? I was hoping there would be discussion from knowledgeable people on those, so that I could learn a thing or two.

  • XadenXaden Posts: 2,290Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I'm quite excited about the change to mind warden and the approved adjustments to sap. I've only recently taken priest and have yet to play around with it in a real sense, but I'm looking forward to testing the changes and having a real go at it.

    Also : bard doesn't look like it's gotten any hard nerfs, which is a bit of a relief.
         He is a coward who has to bring two friends as backup to jump people hunting.

    Tjay
  • ZheoZheo Posts: 17Member
    Shirszae said:
    Zheo said:
    If clumsiness is the only way to counter dwb, its not clumsiness that needs to be nerfed?
    No  :scream:
    Sorry, I realize now that the way I wrote this could be taken two ways because I'm bad at grammar. I'm saying dwb needs nerf not clumsiness.

    Fighting dwb is just un-fun as certain classes and/ or certain health thresholds. Barring arti differences, if I lose to a class it should be because I made mistake(s), not because I'm doomed to lose if I don't kill them first. 
  • CaelanCaelan Posts: 990Member ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    Voli said:
    Reading this makes me happy:
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Decision:
    Rejecting this because its not the direction I want to go, but I do have plans to add some more
    group utility to blademaster this round.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Careful, that's what they said about synthesis and refining ::-D

  • LeviticusLeviticus Posts: 311Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Atalkez said:
    Sylvan and DW aren’t killing you from that damage with no recourse. Once you go prone vs DwB, it’s over.

    Leviticus, no you cannot survive a Pulp Vivi fork. It is a 100% kill if you do it right.

    While people discussing may not have played it on live server, we’ve all tested nearly every class on the test server. No one is talking about nerfing the class into oblivion, but it shouldn’t be able to just roll through anyone he fights because he paid money. That’s not balance.

    Like Farrah said, some of us have paid the exact same as Proficy to be able to survive and still can’t. Proficy is the reason I dropped BM, when I nearly died to 4 flail combos in Mir inside my own city. It’s simply not a reasonable level of damage and continuing breaks.

    At the end of the day, no you don’t get to kill people because you spent money. Classes are going to continually be adjusted to be survivable and balanced, and it’s DwB’s turn for that.

    I do agree with Proficy on the point of it not having anything else. I never liked that the class only does damage and has no other real options. The problem is the interaction between damage and the kill setups. No reason for it to do that much damage while prepping or when the person is prone.
    I am not saying that because someone paid money they deserve to kill everyone or "roll through anyone he fights" (He doesn't). I am saying that because someone paid money they should have an advantage over someone who doesn't have artefacts or there isn't an artefact that counters it. Should he be able to do high damage with DwB, yes. He paid for it. Is what I am saying. It's not the artefact's fault the class design is flawed and allows flails to do a lot of damage to people. 

    That is what we have lost sight of throughout the years. We have constantly made changes to classes due to artefacts combined with the class set. We, as a community, don't think about the real money people spend on this game is all I am saying. We, as a community, tend to nerf things into the ground and increase the difficultly of playing a class. This impacts new players more than players who can use multiclass to change whenever they want. Isn't that what we are trying to accomplish? Bring new players and new blood into this community? The more we change classes due to artefacts the harder we are making it for new players. 
  • MathildaMathilda Posts: 780Member ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    New players are less likely to stay when they see the sheer pay-to-win component of a game.
     <3 
  • BrenexBrenex Posts: 75Member ✭✭ - Stalwart
    Mathilda said:
    New players are less likely to stay when they see the sheer pay-to-win component of a game.
    This is the exact controversy of loot boxes. I thought it was funny in this decade as that's how it's always been here for the most part.

  • SobriquetSobriquet Posts: 1,946Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Mathilda said:
    New players are less likely to stay when they see the sheer pay-to-win component of a game.
    ...and for a free-to-play game, that pay-to-win gap has gotten significantly larger over the past few years.



    image
  • AdrikAdrik Posts: 24Member
    edited April 16
    Edit 1:  I don't really need to post a ton of this because honestly it can just be better said in a PM instead of here. Sorry.

    I disagree that "Everyone should just classlead what they want even if they don't know what they're talking about".. because it ends up with  a decent chunk of the unapproved pile and stuff. I sure-as-hell ain't going to argue for nerfs/buffs to things when I don't know what the heck I'm talking about.
  • AtalkezAtalkez Posts: 4,627Member, Secret Squirrel @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Leviticus said:
    I am not saying that because someone paid money they deserve to kill everyone or "roll through anyone he fights" (He doesn't). I am saying that because someone paid money they should have an advantage over someone who doesn't have artefacts or there isn't an artefact that counters it. Should he be able to do high damage with DwB, yes. He paid for it. Is what I am saying. It's not the artefact's fault the class design is flawed and allows flails to do a lot of damage to people. 

    That is what we have lost sight of throughout the years. We have constantly made changes to classes due to artefacts combined with the class set. We, as a community, don't think about the real money people spend on this game is all I am saying. We, as a community, tend to nerf things into the ground and increase the difficultly of playing a class. This impacts new players more than players who can use multiclass to change whenever they want. Isn't that what we are trying to accomplish? Bring new players and new blood into this community? The more we change classes due to artefacts the harder we are making it for new players. 
    Except he pretty much does. He may lose to the one or two matchups that DwB struggles against regardless of it's offense, but pretty much everything else just gets destroyed. There's 0 reason for me to fight him in anything like BM/Monk/Bard that has paltry resists and poor armour - and my defensive investment is probably higher than his offensive investment, since I have Mantle on top of the normal defensive stuff. DwB forged is just as crazy, though, and that's something a lot of people don't realize. The damage uptick from the arties is a lot more minimal than you would think - it's the speed that really makes the most difference. You can still Pulp with a TON of time to fight through room hinder or whatever, and as Infernal you can still fork Vivi/Pulp for 100% secured kill. You keep saying there are counters - there aren't. You either die to Pulp or you die to Vivi - there is no option.

    I think you've got it backwards. The situation that hurts new comers is walking into a fight and being totally obliterated, because you didn't spend money like someone else did. That's not a good place to be for the game. No one has lost sight of the fact that people have spent money on the game. The problem, whether you want to note it or not, is that artefacts have become so widespread - you have to balance around them. It doesn't do us any good to balance a class perfectly, then let someone spend money and now the class does things it wasn't actually intended to do. This is why Torc was deleted, and why damage has been worked and re-worked over the years. It's a process of fine tuning mechanics so that you have an advantage, while it not being so enormous that you can't overcome it with skill. At the end of the day, I 100% believe that the more skillful player should win - not the person who does more damage because they had a bigger credit card or whatever it was that allowed them to buy a ton of artefacts.


    You hug Aurora compassionately.
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