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Depthswalkers: Post your findings.

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  • SzanthaxSzanthax San DiegoPosts: 1,906Member @ - Epic Achaean
    I'll take  them so I  can review when I'm sober :)



  • SynbiosSynbios Posts: 4,438Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I'll also take them. I'm interested in seeing how you do your killy bits.

  • BorranBorran Posts: 845Member ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    @Zulah Shoot me some of them. I still have much to learn from the spars we've had, but I'd like to see things from another's point of view, if I can.

    And thank you for patiently working with me to figure out the ins and outs of the class.

    Valaria
  • BorranBorran Posts: 845Member ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    So.. I've been away a couple of weeks, but I checked in on the forum to check on the Depthswalker chatter and it seems to have died down. Does this mean that the class is balanced or has been balanced? Or that shielding will forever be the counter to Depthswalker? 

    Is anyone out there super scary with the new class? 

  • OmorOmor Posts: 756Member ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    @Atalkez @Farrah and @Zulah are pretty beast with DW, but no changes have been made yet. Shield still way too op.
    Omor Ceberek - Targossas

    got gud
  • RyzethRyzeth Posts: 1,105Member ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    edited December 2016
    Except shield spam doesn't negate DW. Far as I know, only one of the ones you mentioned think it does.

    @Borran it's died down because, as predicted, a vast number of the people who jumped ship to DW, dropped it again. Class is in a relatively good spot, has its ups and downs just like every other class does. Shield spam was about as much of a problem for DW, as it was for Serpent. (That is to say, it merely slows you down)
    FarrahAtalkez
  • MindshellMindshell Posts: 174Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Huh, depthswalker has some very strong tools but pays for this with a neutered offense. Killing someone as a depthswalker in a duel is reliant on your opponent allowing you to win.

    However the class does well what it was designed to, flatten the disparity in factions and the tools available. A good depthswalker is an invaluable asset to any party.
    Borran
  • RyzethRyzeth Posts: 1,105Member ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    Mindshell said:
    Killing someone as a depthswalker in a duel is reliant on your opponent allowing you to win.
    What does this even mean? Explain how the class has a 'neutered offense'. Ff you're not able to kill people with it I assure you it's not because the class is bad.
  • DridenDriden Posts: 252Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Ryzeth said:
    Mindshell said:
    Killing someone as a depthswalker in a duel is reliant on your opponent allowing you to win.
    What does this even mean? Explain how the class has a 'neutered offense'. Ff you're not able to kill people with it I assure you it's not because the class is bad.
    If my theory is correct you can trick people into thinking your going one route and kill them another way. Love this class. 
  • RyzethRyzeth Posts: 1,105Member ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    Driden said:
    Ryzeth said:
    Mindshell said:
    Killing someone as a depthswalker in a duel is reliant on your opponent allowing you to win.
    What does this even mean? Explain how the class has a 'neutered offense'. Ff you're not able to kill people with it I assure you it's not because the class is bad.
    If my theory is correct you can trick people into thinking your going one route and kill them another way. Love this class. 
    Exactly.
  • DridenDriden Posts: 252Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Ryzeth said:
    Driden said:
    Ryzeth said:
    Mindshell said:
    Killing someone as a depthswalker in a duel is reliant on your opponent allowing you to win.
    What does this even mean? Explain how the class has a 'neutered offense'. Ff you're not able to kill people with it I assure you it's not because the class is bad.
    If my theory is correct you can trick people into thinking your going one route and kill them another way. Love this class. 
    Exactly.
    We should talk theory later. Also post more logs!
  • CaliraCalira Posts: 336Member, Secret Squirrel ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    As a pure momentum class, it has some prominent and glaring weaknesses in its 1v1 potential. I think that's what Mindshell is referring to
  • RyzethRyzeth Posts: 1,105Member ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    Saying it has weaknesses, is vastly different to saying it's neutered. I mean he quite literally said your winning depends on your opponent letting you win, which frankly just isn't true.
  • CaliraCalira Posts: 336Member, Secret Squirrel ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Perhaps. But it isn't an exaggeration to say that DW winning against a non-momentum class relies on their opponent making a major mistake
  • RyzethRyzeth Posts: 1,105Member ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    Not an exaggeration no, but it's redundant to say. You could argue that any class in the game requires the person you're killing to make mistakes.
    FarrahAtalkez
  • DridenDriden Posts: 252Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Calira said:
    Perhaps. But it isn't an exaggeration to say that DW winning against a non-momentum class relies on their opponent making a major mistake
    Would you expand on this more. I mean coming from serpent this doesn't seem to be any different. We all know prep classes have an advantage over momentum classes. What's different with dw?
    FarrahAtalkez
  • CaliraCalira Posts: 336Member, Secret Squirrel ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Driden said:
    What's different with dw?
    It's not really different at all, since Serpent shares the same weakness. You need time to work your magic and kill someone, and a handful of pure prep classes are not obligated to give you that time.
  • MindshellMindshell Posts: 174Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Sure, depthswalker is completely reliant on straight line momentum. It has no checkpoint momentum progression that it can leverage off to progress the kill, the checkpoints it does have (shadow and deteriorate) are both dictate enablers and do nothing to progress the baseline affliction pressure that depthswalker brings. Furthermore, their capstones result in a net momentum loss as you trade affliction pressure for the extra effect. The affliction pressure also doesn't utilise time limit mechanics to put you on a clock like darkshade brings. The moment you hit the brakes on depthswalker momentum, you will catch up unless you left it until they're already in the kill zone.

    Simple things like allowing capstones reached to maintain a lingering effect so smart switching between attunes is rewarded and bringing up the dictate level based on these so there is a real reward for checkpointing capstones would go a long way towards cementing what depthswalker is good at. I haven't delved into fighting as a depthwalker yet, but being on the receiving end and analysing what a depthswalker can bring leaves me unphased by the kit.

    The class is not bad, and frankly is absolutely devastating when paired correctly with a party, but I will maintain that for a depthswalker to be solo killing, it is reliant on the target responding incorrectly and allowing the depthswalker to establish its momentum unchecked. You're free to disagree with me, but hopefully that sheds some light on my perspective.
    Omor
  • FarrahFarrah Posts: 1,476Member, Secret Squirrel @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Theory is vastly different from practice. All setups are theoretically possible to avoid. In practice, everyone dies to things that can be avoided.

    I haven't run into anyone I've been unable to kill as DW yet. I'd expect Jhui, when monk, to be in that category given how fighting him as priest was. I can't say I've run into the problem with anyone else though.

    It's definitely not a DW-specific problem though.
    Ryzeth
  • RyzethRyzeth Posts: 1,105Member ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    edited December 2016
    Mindshell said:
    Furthermore, their capstones result in a net momentum loss as you trade affliction pressure for the extra effect.
     Depression gives two affs which lets you lock them, if you've been doing it correctly. Not to mention when coupled with hypochondria (which it gives), it leads to ridiculous amounts of damage going out.
     Madness stuns them, albeit short. The route might as well lock them out of focusing, for how much it extends the balance (madness shadow attune, hi?)
      Retribution fails to see how obliterating their mana is losing pressure, but that's just me I guess.
     Leach I'll give you that one, does nothing once you have their shadow (at capstone).
     Degeneration paralysis as the capstone, which lets you continue to stack venom affs on them? Yes please.

     The affliction pressure also doesn't utilise time limit mechanics to put you on a clock like darkshade brings. 
      I'm not quite sure you understand how hypochondria works. Because it is most definitely a 'time limit' mechanic, if the Depthswalker is actually any good. And it forces you to cure that over their class afflictions, otherwise you're going to get locked [or destroyed by madness/depression]. Leave Retribution uncured too long, you gon' get dictated. Leave Madness/Depression uncured, you gon die to a) boat loads of mental affs that you can't focus away, or b) dirty amounts of damage. They're not the same sort of time limit as Darkshade is, but they definitely fall into the category.

    Simple things like allowing capstones reached to maintain a lingering effect 
    While an interesting idea I'm not sure you can really put anything 'lingering' on them that wouldn't make it ridiculously powerful. Especially having a momentary increase on dictate threshold.

    The class is not bad, and frankly is absolutely devastating when paired correctly with a party, but I will maintain that for a depthswalker to be solo killing, it is reliant on the target responding incorrectly and allowing the depthswalker to establish its momentum unchecked.
    So does Serpent, Bard, Apostate, Priest, Occultist... List goes on.
    Trimmed so a long post wouldn't be longer. Pretty much what Farrah said, tho.
  • SenoskeSenoske Posts: 162Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited December 2016
    I don't really feel like DW is weak at all.  Even with a simple offense as I've managed to mess with (Thanks @Deladan for the help <3) with just 1 killroute I'm doing better than I could with a lot of other classes I've touched.

    It's also a huge step in the right direction IMO in class balance. Artifacts aren't trying to stomp your wallet with prices and are fairly obtainable. Artie scythe while nice, isn't exactly needed. Dex boots and then the normal universal good arties are all you need. Dex boots still optional, only necessary if you find yourself aging too quickly and need the de-aging process to go down faster.

    Occultist is just dumb. Scrap the class and make a completely new one imo. No class should have ents (plural) that pretty much do the work for you. Not to mention their aoe damage is completely insane and their utility is fairly crazy as well, in party as well as solo due to Tarot and other tricks.
  • RyzethRyzeth Posts: 1,105Member ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    Senoske said:
    Occultist is just dumb. Scrap the class and make a completely new one imo. No class should have ents (plural) that pretty much do the work for you. Not to mention their aoe damage is completely insane and their utility is fairly crazy as well, in party as well as solo due to Tarot and other tricks.
    You realise they control the ents, right? Gone are the days where you 'order entourage kill target' as an Occultist, and wait (hope) for them to die, with only minor input from the Occultist. I dislike fighting an Occultist as much as the next guy, but it's not a fire and forget thing. Definitely wouldn't put them more powerful than DW, either (maybe in groups, but defs not solo)
  • CooperCooper IowaPosts: 4,103Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Er.

    Occultist ents "do the work for you" pretty much the same way Depthswalkers instills "do the work for you".

  • RyzethRyzeth Posts: 1,105Member ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    edited December 2016
    Right.

    Difference being that the venoms you're going to be doing, are entirely separate from the instill afflictions. So you have zero chance of doubling up on the affs you give. Compared to occultist instills + ents. Exception for depthswalker is if you do curare/degeneration, and they already have all the kelp affs (so you end up doing para+para as your combo)
  • AustereAustere TennesseePosts: 2,063Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Ryzeth said:
    Right.

    Difference being that the venoms you're going to be doing, are entirely separate from the instill afflictions. So you have zero chance of doubling up on the affs you give. Compared to occultist instills + ents. Exception for depthswalker is if you do curare/degeneration, and they already have all the kelp affs (so you end up doing para+para as your combo)
    Unless you ent/instill instead of instill/ent..
  • RyzethRyzeth Posts: 1,105Member ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    edited December 2016
    Austere said:
    Ryzeth said:
    Right.

    Difference being that the venoms you're going to be doing, are entirely separate from the instill afflictions. So you have zero chance of doubling up on the affs you give. Compared to occultist instills + ents. Exception for depthswalker is if you do curare/degeneration, and they already have all the kelp affs (so you end up doing para+para as your combo)
    Unless you ent/instill instead of instill/ent..
    Ent bal at minimum possible speed, is not the same speed as instill even with a diadem. A weird comment because, if you're waiting for bals to align, ent/instill is worse than instill/ent. Ent aff is random, instill isn't. So if you ent/instill clumsy, and ent gives clumsy, you just cost yourself. And, if you're waiting for bals to align regardless, you're also costing yourself.
  • AustereAustere TennesseePosts: 2,063Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited December 2016
    Ryzeth said:
    Austere said:
    Ryzeth said:
    Right.

    Difference being that the venoms you're going to be doing, are entirely separate from the instill afflictions. So you have zero chance of doubling up on the affs you give. Compared to occultist instills + ents. Exception for depthswalker is if you do curare/degeneration, and they already have all the kelp affs (so you end up doing para+para as your combo)
    Unless you ent/instill instead of instill/ent..
    Ent bal at minimum possible speed, is not the same speed as instill even with a diadem. You're not wrong, but waiting until you have both every time is a waste.
    You don't have to wait until you have both balances for the proximity of them going through to be so close that attempting to alter your instill or even register it between the two is an impossible feat.  Saying there is zero chance of it happening is false.

    Edit: Pff, editor.  Ent before your physical Balance is ridiculously good, at times.  I'm not talking about queuing everything on eqbal and letting ent just chill. The fact that they do not line up perfectly means they will line up close enough at times for the gap to become irrelevant, at which point you're fighting rng on the order of them.  Both orderings have their perks, but ent before an instill does result in random duplicate affs.  It's largely irrelevant, but the chance is higher than zero
  • RyzethRyzeth Posts: 1,105Member ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    edited December 2016
    Austere said:
    You don't have to wait until you have both balances for the proximity of them going through to be so close that attempting to alter your instill or even register it between the two is an impossible feat.  Saying there is zero chance of it happening is false.
    What. I said depthswalker doesn't have to worry about doubling up on affs, lol. (which is what my zero chance comment was directed at) - No one has a perfect fight every single fight, even Josoul and Seragorn have doubled up their affs before a number of times. Which, as I said, is something DW doesn't really have to worry about. Unless they're doubling up on a venom they've given already (eg: euphorbia when they've already given nausea whether from depression route, or just giving it as a venom)
    Austere
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