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New Ship ideas

JinsunJinsun TN, USAPosts: 2,666 @@ - Legendary Achaean
I totally missed the Classleads, so I wanted to open up some of my ideas on ship changes and put them before people:

Problem: Endurance drain during ship combat. Currently, efficient endurance usage is by design a major part of ship combat. However, there's the problem of fighting one ship then another or multiple ships at a time when it just really leaves one the one ship helpless. Granted, it is sort of like PvP where being ganked is just kind of sucks for you, but I think that given the inherent penalty of being sunk or plundered maybe some adjustment is inline.

Proposed Solution: If you sink a ship, your endurance replenishes either by half or whole.

Problem: 
When I sink people I don't always get credit.

Solution change sinking to always give credit to the last ship to attack the ship within a large, 10-20 minute window.

Problem: currently, if multiple crewmembers cut a tether at the same time, it is impossible to out-gun a crew of 3 or more.

Solution: Allow some cooldown on all tethers so they cannot be cut at the same time- unless fired by different ships, or stack everyone's balance time when multiple tethers are cut. I.e. if 4 people cut a tether within say 1-2 seconds, they all have a 16s balance time (not sure how hard that is to code).

Problem:

The mariners suck

Solution:
Force naval organizations to limit number of member cities to two.

Problem:

Plundering is still not a viable mechanic in the face of sinking costs and upkeeps, and most people who can actually plunder already have pretty well trained swashies (Good luck plundering me and actually getting anything).

Solution:
remove the stores/token mechanic or remove the losing them when the ship sinks to reduce costs or remove all costs from sinking. Or just give special rewards that you might find in a shipmate's cabin like ship trade rewards or some such.

These are just a few ideas. Welcome any more.
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Comments

  • AnariaAnaria Posts: 171 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited September 2016
    I debated even responding to this. Its so self-serving it hardly warrants it.

    Problem #1 isn't a problem. 
    Problem #3 isn't a problem.
    Problem #4 isn't a problem.

    As far as credit for sinking goes, this is in fact a problem. If a ship sinks due to fire damage, the game cannot/does not determine the source of that damage. The sinking message will simply reflect whoever or whatever damaged the ship last. If a ship is on fire, it is almost guaranteed that the last damage it takes right before sinking will be from that fire. This means if you have Weapons 5, you can sink ships anonymously.

    Ships need to record the sources of damage they took in the last 10 minutes, and when a ship sinks, the report should reflect ALL sources of damage received. Meaning if two ships and a seamonster sink a target, the deathsight should reflect all of that and not just whoever was lucky enough to get in the final shot.
  • SarathaiSarathai Posts: 2,139 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Jinsun said:
    Solution:
    Force naval organizations to limit number of member cities to two.
    This will likely just result in:

    Pirates = Mhashtan 2: Boarding Boogaloo
    Mariners = Cyrene (with maybe Hashan along for the ride)
    MTC = Eleusis (most of the MTC members are Eleusian, from memory, but I could be wrong here)
    - (Eleusis): Ellodin says, "The Fissure of Echoes is Sarathai's happy place."
    - With sharp, crackling tones, Kyrra tells you, "The ladies must love you immensely."
    - (Eleusian Ranger Techs): Savira says, "Most of the hard stuff seem to have this built in code like: If adventurer_hitting_me = "Sarathai" then send("terminate and selfdestruct")."
    - Makarios says, "Serve well and perish."
    - Xaden says, "Xaden confirmed scrub 2017."



    Senoske
  • JinsunJinsun TN, USAPosts: 2,666 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Sarathai said:
    Jinsun said:
    Solution:
    Force naval organizations to limit number of member cities to two.
    This will likely just result in:

    Pirates = Mhashtan 2: Boarding Boogaloo
    Mariners = Cyrene (with maybe Hashan along for the ride)
    MTC = Eleusis (most of the MTC members are Eleusian, from memory, but I could be wrong here)
    That one was more a joke 
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  • JinsunJinsun TN, USAPosts: 2,666 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    @Anaria 1/4 aren't real problems for you because the only real seafaring that you do is ganging up on striders with 3 or more ships, griefing windcutters or dropping anchor in the seamonster kiddie pool. I highly doubt that you've ever had to fight more than one ship in a row to understand the mechanics. 3 was an obvious joke. 4 is a complaint that was put forward by several people for a reason that they don't care for seafaring. Aside from seamonster hunting after you have a fully stocked ship with racks, almost every other seafaring activity especially plundering has a very low reward. I don't know why you even bother commenting on seafaring when you refuse to understand basic mechanics or to actually try and be good at it.
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  • MorthifMorthif Posts: 1,284 @ - Epic Achaean
    Jinsun said:
    @Anaria 1/4 aren't real problems for you because the only real seafaring that you do is ganging up on striders with 3 or more ships, griefing windcutters or dropping anchor in the seamonster kiddie pool. I highly doubt that you've ever had to fight more than one ship in a row to understand the mechanics. 3 was an obvious joke. 4 is a complaint that was put forward by several people for a reason that they don't care for seafaring. Aside from seamonster hunting after you have a fully stocked ship with racks, almost every other seafaring activity especially plundering has a very low reward. I don't know why you even bother commenting on seafaring when you refuse to understand basic mechanics or to actually try and be good at it.
    Pot meet kettle 
  • PuxiPuxi Posts: 235 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
  • JinsunJinsun TN, USAPosts: 2,666 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Here's my beef:

    I don't get why anything aside from 3 is self-serving. I'm not the only person whose had to fight more than one ship at once or in a row so the fix doesn't apply to just me. Endurance isn't like mana drain from a fight where you can just sip up and keep going. If you fight off two ships and a third rolls up and you're at 0 endurance that's game over, you're done. That's a change that could benefit anyone who is on the sea fighting and encourages longer naval combat.

    2 was admitted to be an honest issue.

    4 applies to -anyone- who wants to do ship combat. I've had people try to plunder me before. They got nothing because my swashies were leveled too high, so it honestly would have benefited them more in that situation. I've never plundered someone and lost value so, I've not really had a situation where 4 helps me. Of course when someone comes at me with that kind of arrogance I'm gonna tell them what I think. 

    Also, even if more changes are forthcoming, I was under the impression that the next batch of changes had to do with ship trades, not straight mechanics. There have already been a lot of patches and bug fixes to mechanics for things that just weren't working right, I don't see why these as ideas are really outside the scope of kicking around.

    TL;DR Anaria is rude, Morthif is a troll, and Puxi, that actually made me laugh.
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  • MorthifMorthif Posts: 1,284 @ - Epic Achaean
    edited September 2016
    Endurance cost for everything sailing is very high. Rewarding endurance back only for sinking a ship is only rewarding to very few. 

    Leveling swashies isnt isn't trivial if you have elite swashies you should benefit from it. 

    And shiip deathsight is an issue but saying a 15-20 min timer for last hit is a fucking joke. You'd be lucky to get 5. 
  • JinsunJinsun TN, USAPosts: 2,666 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Morthif said:
    Endurance cost for everything sailing is very high. Rewarding endurance back only for sinking a ship is only rewarding to very few.

    Yep, it would be rewarding to people who just sank a ship and would be out of endurance with their location broadcast to all of Achaea. 

    Leveling swashies isnt isn't trivial if you have elite swashies you should benefit from it. 

    Nothing in my post said that having high swashies shouldn't benefit more. It only said that the risk was not even remotely the same as the reward. The reward sucks even if you have super high swashies.

    And shiip deathsight is an issue but saying a 15-20 min timer for last hit is a fucking joke. You'd be lucky to get 5. 

    You can keep a ship afloat for 10+ minutes easy after hitting the sinking stages. I've went as long as 30 minutes in harbour before.

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  • MorthifMorthif Posts: 1,284 @ - Epic Achaean
    You can also take a potshot at a ship on its way seanonster hunting and end up with undue credit. 
  • PuxiPuxi Posts: 235 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Couldn't you rectify that by putting a % damage threshold that you have to do to "mark" a ship. The more damage you do the longer that ship in marked? Just spitballin here.
    JinsunBann
  • JinsunJinsun TN, USAPosts: 2,666 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I think Puxi hit the nail on the head with a constructive idea. It's pretty rare that a person is going to fire 1 shot and the other ship go get sank by a seamonster within the same 20 minutes.
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  • AnariaAnaria Posts: 171 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited September 2016
    Jinsun said:
    @Anaria 1/4 aren't real problems for you because the only real seafaring that you do is ganging up on striders with 3 or more ships, griefing windcutters or dropping anchor in the seamonster kiddie pool. I highly doubt that you've ever had to fight more than one ship in a row to understand the mechanics. 3 was an obvious joke. 4 is a complaint that was put forward by several people for a reason that they don't care for seafaring. Aside from seamonster hunting after you have a fully stocked ship with racks, almost every other seafaring activity especially plundering has a very low reward. I don't know why you even bother commenting on seafaring when you refuse to understand basic mechanics or to actually try and be good at it.
    Says the guy who buys and fully outfits a war galley, then parks it in Thraasi and waits for hours on end in the hopes of jumping some windcutter doing a trade. Then wonders why seafaring is so unrewarding. heh.

    As far as plundering goes... I had no problem the last three times I plundered you. Then again, I put the time into leveling my swashbucklers and as @Morthif correctly pointed out, that is not a trivial undertaking. I could just as easily make the argument that it is unfair that I can no longer plunder/defend against your war galley since it has so many more swashbucklers than my sea strider and out classes it in almost every way, but that would be just as silly.

    As for people "ganging up on you"... maybe you should make an effort to be more likeable? :)
  • ZulahZulah Posts: 610 @ - Epic Achaean
    This thread amuses me. Continue.
    Shimi
  • JinsunJinsun TN, USAPosts: 2,666 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    @Anaria I can remember once that you tried to plunder with 3 other ships, and you guys accused me of being out to gank trade ships because I "didnt have cargo." You guys didn't get anything because your swashies weren't good enough. My galley isn't docked at thraasi. We take it out nearly every day. ive caught you alone twice. The first time I sank you, the second you wavecalled so hard I'm surprised you didn't hit anything.
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  • JinsunJinsun TN, USAPosts: 2,666 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Just want to improve ships. Who I gotta blow for that?
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  • AsmodronAsmodron Posts: 2,007 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I just wish sailing didnt feel like such a high gamble. It really makes it feel detrimental to try and go out there. I'd love if the system itself stayed but the costs of losing lessened.

    - cargo not potentially gone with sinking
    - easier access to purchase ship wares
    - less hefty costs for raising ships


    Honestly most of the time we are afraid to go out there from the hassle of reraising a ship and the loss with. Reducing that painful aspect alone could bring more life to seafaring.
  • FrederichFrederich Posts: 949 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    Aside from those two going at it, I'll have to agree with Asmodron.

    There's a lot of fear in dealing with seafaring.  The price for getting attacked is really high if you can't get away.  The upside?  You might make some money that you might not have been able to make on land.  Seamonster hunting still isn't lucrative enough to justify the end rewards, simply due to the open PVP penalties of it.  Annwyn can technically get you more experience, generally more gold (if you're a good enough level, for the time put in), and will on average, have a MUCH less costly price for your death.

    A death in Annwyn, if you've been hunting there for 30 minutes is some XP loss, and maybe a bit of gold loss (a drop or two from denizens) if you've not put it away recently.

    A death on the oceans if you've been out hunting for 30 minutes results in you having to pay fees for raising your ship.  Strongbox might/almost always will have gotten raided.  You can't competently say that you won't just sink because "OH WOW.  THAT SEAMONSTER HIT FOR MORE THAN I THOUGHT AND THE OCEANS TURNED TO SHIT FOR REPAIR"... The raising fee alone, for some of these seamonster zones is hefty.  If your ship had cargo, or a decent chunk of gold in the strongbox?  You might have lost even more if you got attacked by pirates.


    Something needs to give.  We need to either make seamonster hunting more lucrative for the time you're putting in out in open PVP zones (with RNG making you it's bitch if the oceans just decide that no, you DON'T need to repair your ship), with 10k to upwards of 40-50k on raising fees depending on where you sank at.. and the fact that, compared to normal area hunting?  You might just get the short stick.  I know at my level, if I hunt for an hour, I can get 25kish gold.  This doesn't require me to be in open PVP, require me to use ammo (which, if you don't want to be shooting 100 gold every time you fire, you require an investment of 200cr), and is no where near as painful on me should I die (cutting into 2-3 hours of hunting because of 'raising' fees).

    Just make the risks of sinking when dealing with the oceans less risky, or raise the rewards for it being as risky as it is right now.
    AsmodronShirszae
  • AsmodronAsmodron Posts: 2,007 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited September 2016
    While I am not a big fan of Lusternia mechanics, their version of 'seafaring' was much less stressful and more based on fun. If your 'ship' sunk, it immediately returned to the main game dock, it may require a bit of repairs before it heads out (including removing any 'effects' placed by other ships), but there was no raising hassle or delay. The only thing you would lose is xp in your death as well as their version of 'monster trophies', which are all lost if the ship blows up. Frankly, that is about it, you could go back out there and try again. It may not be as immersive as the painful option we have but hey it was far less emotionally stunting.


    While the ship being immediately ready to go back out may cause issues with suicide runs, I could definitely see a simple 10-20 min delay made after a ship is sunk for it to immediately be raised again for free. Removing the idea of possibility of losing crew and thus needing tokens would also be good.
  • AegothAegoth Posts: 1,991 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    also the way you moved ships in lusternia was faaaaaar more user friendly. just enter STEER SHIP LEFT and you moved a square left. No need to wait for ships to lumber about with turning and shit
    AsmodronPuxi
  • JinsunJinsun TN, USAPosts: 2,666 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I will say seamonster hunting -can- be very lucrative (up to 50k an hour for 2 people so 100k) but you need a huggggeeee investment before you can make that (2 fully stocked ships with at least 2-3 racks) you're looking at close to 20 million gold before in before it starts getting good. I only really recommend seamonster hunting as a new way to make gold if they have org ships or already have ships. 

    I think though that you guys echo a lot of the concerns for point 4. Even if you're not going to plunder ships, you're at a huge risk when you get sunk. Even if you've got someone to salvage you're probably looking at a good 20-30k in tokens and comms and you've gotten like no reward. I'd be cool with new suggestions for ways to mitigate the costs and improve the reward 
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  • JinsunJinsun TN, USAPosts: 2,666 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Another idea I had but forgot to mention originally is a change to ship logs. 

    1. I don't think a lot of people even know they exist.

    2. Somethings id like added to ship logs:

         Monthly crew wages at serenade.

         Monthly ammo production or use at serenade

         Plunder rewards and morale gain numbers.
     
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    ShimiSiduriZbaco
  • FrederichFrederich Posts: 949 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    100k an hour is only good because of the current gold cap being 250k, which makes your gold turn from 250+ per enemy to like.  2 gold per.  (Seriously.  I hit this thing during the Great Hunt every day, literally what the actual fuck).  But 100k, considering the sheer costs of "oh no.  I sank" is just.. silly.  I didn't even think about having to restock tokens/comms after sinking, so that just makes it all the worse to think about.

    Hell, I tried to seamonster hunt yesterday, just because I was like "I need to do this for house shit".  What'd I get?  Nearly dead to a friggin Zone 1 because swing-by's don't work in level 8 storms... Anyways.  How much you have to invest into seamonster hunting to even BEGIN to get a pay out is kind of absurd.  I'm pretty sure higher zones past 2 still aren't worth the payout for the risk involved, either (considering you NEED more than just one person to hunt them, hell you might even need 3-4).


    I do like the ship log changes though.  It's near impossible to actually figure out how-the-hell they work, and it doesn't update with stuff that often.
  • GreysGreys Posts: 647 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    @Frederich  For some reason in my head, a fellow game's comment pops into my head which is "GET GUD". Hunting seamonsters is a nontrivial task and skill unto itself. If you are regularly getting hit by the monster, you aren't doing it right. See if Greys is free to take you hunting so you can see how he does it as he can handle anything up to the Zone 4's with a crew of novices.
  • AerekAerek East Tennessee, USAPosts: 1,802 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    You don't hunt sea monsters in VI+ seas if you want to make money at it. If you step onto your ship to hunt monsters and the seas at the hunting grounds are VII, you just sail back and try another day unless you're doing it for the sheer thrill of it. I don't know how sea weather is determined, but it feels weighted toward the higher end; I see VII+ much more commonly than I see I-III. Making VII "storms" more rare would have a non-trivial effect on how lucrative monstering is, and I've suggested it before.
    -- Grounded in one perspective, what we perceive is an exaggeration of the truth.
  • BannBann Posts: 339 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Greys said:
    @Frederich  For some reason in my head, a fellow game's comment pops into my head which is "GET GIT GUD". Hunting seamonsters is a nontrivial task and skill unto itself. If you are regularly getting hit by the monster, you aren't doing it right. See if Greys is free to take you hunting so you can see how he does it as he can handle anything up to the Zone 4's with a crew of novices.
    FTFY Greys. I don't know what level seas I've been out with Jinsun and Tianondria in, but every time we go out we slay seamonsters like they're made out of putty.

  • JinsunJinsun TN, USAPosts: 2,666 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited September 2016
    Tbf I put seamonster hunting on easy mode for Ashtan
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