Breaking Credit Market

Zulah

I under why they did it but...


ANNOUNCE NEWS #4610                                     (08/18/2016 at 19:26) 
From   : Makarios, the Meticulous
To     : Everyone
Subject: Update to the credit market
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We're always monitoring the credit market, and we've seen an increasing trend towards speculating.
This is the practice of buying credits at a regular price then immediately reselling them for a
higher price. While this kind of selling is fine in moderation, we've decided its become a wide-
spread enough issue that we need to put some limitations in place, in order to keep the credit
market stable over the long term.

Going forward, it is no longer possible to place credits on the market for more than 300 gold above
the current average sale price. We'll be evaluating the situation following this change and may
adjust the window accordingly. It is our hope that this change will increase over all market
stability and reduce the wild fluctuations we've seen of late.

Penned by My hand on the 4th of Chronos, in the year 720 AF.

(The Midnight Crew): You say, "Thats so fail."
5741h, 3635m, 24580e, 16210w exdb-
(The Midnight Crew): Amranu says, "Achaea's gone communist."
5741h, 3635m, 24580e, 16210w exdb-
(The Midnight Crew): You say, "All I have to do is drop the average sale price."
5741h, 3635m, 24580e, 16210w exdb-
(The Midnight Crew): You say, "And now it can't go up."
5741h, 3635m, 24580e, 16210w exdb-
(The Midnight Crew): You say, "If I sell 1000 at 500 gold."
5741h, 3635m, 24580e, 16210w exdb-
(The Midnight Crew): You say, "No one can sell credits for more than 1k."

(Market): You say, "CFS 500 gold on CFS."
5741h, 3635m, 24580e, 16210w exdb-
You set aside TOOMANY credit(s) for sale at 500 gold per credit.
5741h, 3635m, 24580e, 16210w exdb-


Credits currently available for purchase:
      92 credits at  8150 gold per credit.
      15 credits at  8151 gold per credit.
       4 credits at  8200 gold per credit.
      17 credits at  8500 gold per credit.
      60 credits at  8650 gold per credit.
      46 credits at  8800 gold per credit.
      50 credits at  8875 gold per credit.
     180 credits at  8900 gold per credit.
      62 credits at  9000 gold per credit.
      26 credits at  9050 gold per credit.
(15 offers with higher prices have not been shown.)
Total credits for sale: 552 shown (2363 total)  (Average sale price: 1077)
Use CREDITS BUY <number> AT <max gold per credit> to purchase.

5741h, 3635m, 24580e, 16210w exdb-
(Market): You say, "You're welcome. Legendary smith for hire."

Zulah

(Market): You say, "CFS at 2 gold per."

You hear a high-pitched screaming noise and instantly a bolt of red, crackling energy strikes your
mortal body. Your back arches as pain explodes in your brain. Crimson fire erupts through your eye
sockets and mouth as you die in unspeakable agony.
You have been slain by Nicola.
All your golden sovereigns fall from your lifeless hands.

Well that was unfortunate... I dropped all my gold


Edit:
You pick up 1662900 gold sovereigns.
5392h, 3635m, 24580e, 16210w ex-
You put 1662900 gold sovereigns in a wyrmskin pack.


phew....

Tydas

After buying 23 credits at 8150 gold, the average price is up to 5742. So, it won't take too long for it to stabilize again. Hilarious, but not as broken as it looked.

Makarios

We've added a lower bound to prevent that now.

Xaden

Dislike

Zulah

I'll leave it alone but it's still incredibly exploitable.

I can just make a script to do check average price, adjust by the max amount and:
Example A:
Sell 10 at 600 below (wait for sale)
repeat x 50

Example B:
market sell 1000 credits below cost
credits buy 1000 above cost
repeat x whatever I want new credit cost to be
sell credits at 600 below new cost
force credit price to what I want

It's good in theory and all but I was just trying to point out the flaw in it. No need to kill me and risk me losing all my gold...

Nicola

For future reference, any player is welcome to file an issue, a bug, or even contact Makarios or myself directly via messages or email to point out a perceived flaw in a system.

Finding a bug or problem and then abusing it is a very good (and long documented) way to get shrubbed.

Zulah

(Mudlet Clan): You say, "Best thing to do would be return all sale credits, set the average to a
number and go from there."


Credits currently available for purchase:
      33 credits at  8000 gold per credit.
       5 credits at  8800 gold per credit.
      50 credits at  8875 gold per credit.
     180 credits at  8900 gold per credit.
      26 credits at  9050 gold per credit.
Total credits for sale: 294 shown (294 total)  (Average sale price: 8000)
Use CREDITS BUY <number> AT <max gold per credit> to purchase.


Glad to see someone was listening...

I didn't think it was a bug. Just using the system in place to put credits at a price newbies could afford. I paid 1k for credits when I was new. But if I got shrubbed for selling credits to people for cheap that would be an even lower blow than what I got for offering instant viewable feedback.

Frederich

Tydas said:

After buying 23 credits at 8150 gold, the average price is up to 5742. So, it won't take too long for it to stabilize again. Hilarious, but not as broken as it looked.

THANKS FOR THE MONEY

Tydas

Frederich said:

Tydas said:

After buying 23 credits at 8150 gold, the average price is up to 5742. So, it won't take too long for it to stabilize again. Hilarious, but not as broken as it looked.

THANKS FOR THE MONEY

Oh, I didn't buy any, just saw that they were bought.

Zulah

Tydas said:

Frederich said:

Tydas said:

After buying 23 credits at 8150 gold, the average price is up to 5742. So, it won't take too long for it to stabilize again. Hilarious, but not as broken as it looked.

THANKS FOR THE MONEY

Oh, I didn't buy any, just saw that they were bought.

I bought a few million gold worth to "fix" the damage I did.

Aerek

Zulah said:

I'll leave it alone but it's still incredibly exploitable.

It's good in theory and all but I was just trying to point out the flaw in it. No need to kill me and risk me losing all my gold...

Except that you lose massive amounts of capital manipulating it like that, and other sellers aren't obligated to sell credits if the average price drops below what they consider reasonable. I'm unaware of the details that govern the average price mechanic, but I assume the average price only counts credits sold in recent history, and so as you caused the market to dry up by forcing the average price down below what people want to sell their credits for, sales would slow and it would take fewer and fewer credits sold at higher prices to raise the average back up. The market would always re-balance itself over time, and you'll have wasted massive amounts of your own resources in order to gift the populace a short-lived buyers' market.

It's capitalism, any major market player could conceivably crash the market by suddenly dumping their product or stock for cheap...but they don't profit from that, so it's not really something we have to worry about much. Sure, it's possible, but the only reason someone would do it is the same reason you're doing it: to prove a point.

Skarash

yeah manipulating prices down will only cause a temporary market disruption - which I suppose if what you're trying to do is to prove that the market is vulnerable to temporary disruptions to the down side - then point made.  But as Aerek stated you will eventually deplete your capital doing that. There are some interesting things you can do with even a temporary market disruption if and when the gold demand curve reverses so I suppose the point is important.  For example - cratering cfs right before the end of an auction would probably restrict the flow of gold enough to make sniping a hassle -maybe.

Zulah

I've got a bet going with someone now. 30 days from now CFS will be at average price over 10k and going up every week.

No one will buy the lowest CFS after it hits a point. They will buy off other people over market. The occasional person just wont care when they need to buy in bulk. They will just spend whatever and buy the 1000 credits they need off market. The average will jump up. With only a 300 gold swing to bring it down not enough small purchases will be made and the average will creep up quicker and quicker.

Market credit sales will become more common and CFS will just be for people needing to have instant credits not reasonable credits.

I'm guilty of it. After a few roulette wins I just buy 1000+ at 9k+ even if the average is 7900 because I don't care. The basher who has 10mil gold to blow and wants that artifact NOW just wont care.

But the guy looking to sell credits fast to get a ship will use market because credits wont sell fast at the current or future average sale price - 300

The current system will encourage inflation FAR more than it will encourage balance. Time will show that quicker than people expect.

Makarios

That's not a problem.

This is a very experimental feature. If it doesn't work, there are several more options we can employ to see about addressing speculating as an issue.

For instance, making all purchases on the market bound is something we're also ok with doing, as is limiting the number of market transactions per person in a day, etc. There are lots of things that can be attempted to get a handle on this. Its a matter of trying most of them to see what's optimal and least intrusive to the general playerbase.

Klendathu

Making all purchases from the credit market bound will make me go and kick puppies. It's useful to be able to purchase unbound credits in game to use to pay for things or to give to other people. I've lent credits to friends in the past, something I wouldn't be able to do if all credits were bound.

Haloshire

Or you could just use gold to pay people.

Jarrod

How would you be unable to lend credits to someone if credit market credits are bound...

You either trade them directly if you have unbound or just give them the gold if not.

Klendathu

Not everyone has the luxury of being around when there are people selling credits, other than on the credit market. Clearly we have a difference of opinion on whether it would be inconvenient or not.

Tydas

There's almost no reason not to just use gold to trade. It's even a more IC way of doing things. Just calculate the gold equivalent of credits you'd normally use, and do that. Send a letter if you don't want to meet in person. Same if you want to lend people credits, just give them the gold equivalent and have them buy the credits themselves.

Tizwin

You could just have an extra 1000g/10% cost which disappears per credit if you want to buy it unbound.

Edit: For example, you buy 100 credits at 10000 per bound, or 11000 unbound, where the seller gets the 10000 per no matter which it is.

Szanthax

Wtf this only happens when i'm at work??

Aegoth

It's already at 9k

Szanthax

yeah i noticed when i got home.. i'm reading about how its at 6k and i'm like f yes... oh wait... no

Zulah

The current system just takes 2 people working together to break. Wouldn't even cost either person a thing to do it.

I don't play with CFS anymore. I dont want leaves. Just sayin....

Szanthax

I buy credits from credit market because i hate talking to people 

Jarrod

Two people (or one person) exploiting it would be really obvious to divine and would be dealt with quick.

Cobault

That moment when the credit market gets a change to attempt to 'fix it' (you scalping assholes...) and the price goes up almost 1k as a result.

Edit: Oh, and admittedly, I applaud your actions Zulah, and it's unfair that you were even zapped over it. So, people can be on the end where they make a profit no problem (until recently,) but you can't be on the end where you take a substantial loss to try and lower the ridiculous cost on credits to a more reasonable amount? I mean, how is that abusing a "bug"... You were literally gaining -nothing- out of it. Come on.

Blujixapug

Zulah said:

I'm guilty of it. After a few roulette wins I just buy 1000+ at 9k+ even if the average is 7900 because I don't care.

Next announce: capped roulette gains

Tahquil

I think it's a question of common curtesy. Telling admin there was a flaw in their mechanics would have been the polite way to go about it instead of rofl yolo mother fuckers.

Deladan

• get gold from pack;;credits buy 100 at 76700 

one typo can easily skew the market.  It left me with like 50k gold. 

I then turned around and sold all that I'd bought... for a profit believe it or not. I have 100 cr left out of the total number of credits I bought today of market. And I'm only down 300k.