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Latest batch of seafaring changes!

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  • KietKiet Posts: 2,734Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    If you spend hundreds of  hours you can just get the extra 2.5 million gold.
  • InuadInuad Posts: 150Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Kiet said:
    If you spend hundreds of  hours you can just get the extra 2.5 million gold.
    Meanwhile, proposing something to make windcutters less run away every time a ship blips by might be nice. That, or simply wiping cutters entirely, and forcing people who want to wade into the seafaring arena to do so with a ship that won't horribly gimp them.
  • KietKiet Posts: 2,734Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Windcutters will never stand a chance against striders unless you buff them to such a level it invalidates striders. Even if you gave them a ballista instead of a thrower they'd still sink just as fast if they stood and tried to fight. All it'd mean is cutters would start shooting each other too, which means most of the people complaining would spend even more time running away from more experienced cutter captains.
  • KresslackKresslack Florida, United StatesPosts: 5,665Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Inuad said:


    @Kresslack what's the point of windcutters, then, if your suggestion is to use bigger ships? As I said before, I don't want windcutters curb stomping a strider, but some effort to make it less run awaaaaaaay might be nice.
    The point of Windcutters (and at this rate it's getting a little redundant) is to offer an entry level or casual sailing opportunity. I said, in direct response to your statement about what should people do if they get tired of running, to try making actually getting involved with their city navies which often have bigger ships just sitting there going to waste.

    It's a novel idea, if people would actually just try it. I've never owned a ship. Why? Because my entire time playing Achaea I've never needed to dump millions of gold into a vessel when I've always had ships just sitting in the navy waiting to be used. Sure, it's great to have a ship if you've the expendable income and want one of your own, but I really wish people would stop acting like there aren't alternatives to Cutters, especially ones they don't have to dump millions into.

    Years spent in Ashtan and Mhaldor trying to make people aware of this, offering the city ships up to be used, and even comprehensive training for those who were interested but didn't know where to start, or just wanted to learn more. You know what happened? Those ships still just sat there, because people either weren't interested in Seafaring or were more interested in buying their own ship to play captain with.

    Less effort to run away in a Cutter? We might as well just give the fucking things wings.


  • MelodieMelodie Port Saint Lucie, FloridaPosts: 4,755Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited July 2016
    I own and sail a personal windcutter.

    I sail very often with Mhaldor's navy to sink ships, do trades, and do plenty to support the navy in general.

    I still think windcutters aren't in a great position, because 100% defense isn't interesting or engaging.

    Edit: Despite a lot of talk here, a windcutter's position has changed a good bit due to the ammo changes and removing forceboard. What a windcutter could do and avoid when I obtained mine has changed a great deal. Now, I support the majority of the changes, but it doesn't mean it still didn't leave windcutter owners in the dark. I've been trying to ponder out a good solution that is viable without invalidating the system, but so far have come up empty. Still thinking on it, though, and assuredly open to ideas.
    "You have had an extraordinary adventure, my dear. Extraordinary! One that few people could ever imagine. Treasure it. Keep it safe and secure, tucked away in some special place in your heart. 

    But... don't spend the rest of your days chasing a ghost."
    InuadShirszae
  • InuadInuad Posts: 150Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Kresslack said:
    Inuad said:


    @Kresslack what's the point of windcutters, then, if your suggestion is to use bigger ships? As I said before, I don't want windcutters curb stomping a strider, but some effort to make it less run awaaaaaaay might be nice.
    The point of Windcutters (and at this rate it's getting a little redundant) is to offer an entry level or casual sailing opportunity. I said, in direct response to your statement about what should people do if they get tired of running, to try making actually getting involved with their city navies which often have bigger ships just sitting there going to waste.

    Less effort to run away in a Cutter? We might as well just give the fucking things wings.
    Getting involved with city navies does little to resolve the issue of people sailing in windcutters having to run away every time someone engages them. I'm not discrediting the notion that people should get involved. It's a great idea! But making the "entry level" or "casual" opportunity a bit less redundantly oh...run again...might be nice.

    Also, I never said less effort to run away. I said more effort to make cutters less run away every time.
  • ShirszaeShirszae Santo DomingoPosts: 2,971Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    @Kresslack there's also the fact that no matter what, you get into a lot of shit for sinking a navy ship in certain places. Ranging from just being revoked access to major drama. Its just easier, and people feel easier about it, by owning their own ship. 

    Its the difference between breaking something that is yours, and breaking something you don't own, no matter how lenient the owner might be about it, there's still a certain unpleasant stress that you have to deal with, and which is honestly not fun.

    And you won't understand the cause of your grief...


    ...But you'll always follow the voices beneath.

  • KresslackKresslack Florida, United StatesPosts: 5,665Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    "Also, I never said less effort to run away. I said more effort to make cutters less run away every time."

    This is exactly my point. People (seem) to want Cutters to stand a chance against a larger, stronger, more capable and highly equipped ship instead of having to run away all of the time. Except, that goes almost (not entirely) against the very design of the ship(s).

    Just to use a OOC hypothetical (I know, they're always horrible, but it's relatively comparable to this scale...maybe)

    If you're in a jeep and you see a tank rumbling towards you and have any thought that it -might- try to blow you to smithereens, chances are you're going to try to get the hell away from it. But if you then look in the floor next to you and spot a small duffle of grenades are you then going to think, "Hmmm...on second thought, while this could be completely mental and have no chance at all for success, I'll just drive around the tank and lobbing grenades at it, hoping to get one into the hatch"? I'd wager not, unless you actually are completely mental and ballsy.

    In regards to sailing (and even sinking) Navy ships, that usually depends on who you have to answer to. In Mhaldor and Ashtan the only penalty imposed upon captains was they cover the cost of salvaging if it couldn't be salvaged with one of the other ships. The Navy took care of token stores and the like, the captains were just reponsible for any salvage costs and maintaining the strongbox level while they used it. These things were made clear in advance and most people were ok with it.

    Accidents happen, and sometimes getting sunk is unavoidable, but there were never negative outcomes for getting a ship sunk unless the captain was doing something they weren't supposed to, like attacking other ships or just being completely negligent. This is why training was offered and people had to demonstrate a certain level of competency prior to even being able to take one out alone.

    I get what people are saying about wanting to do more than run when sailing a Cutter. Sure, it would be great and you'd get more security for your sovereign. I just think it's very unnecessary considering the detailed nature of the Cutter which indicates it's not meant to be much more than a cruise and casual sailing vessel. If that's your preferred ship, you're going to have to run when pit up against a stronger, more capable ship, and you're going to have to learn to get good at it if you want to keep using that type of ship. That's the nature of the beast that is Seafaring.


  • SaevaSaeva Posts: 1,927Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited July 2016
    It's just kind of a tricky place. Striders shouldn't fear cutters, no. But cutters are neat enough that I hate to see them get such a short stick. And I think since things changed they aren't obsolete but they definitely are less enticing. 


    ShirszaeInuadTahquilSherazad
  • KresslackKresslack Florida, United StatesPosts: 5,665Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I think a lot of the issue comes into play as well now that the nature of chops have changed. Windcutters had an extra advantage (typically) of being able to more easily manouvere through chops. Now, however, larger ships can just plow through chops where Cutters have to try to go around or try to go through, taking chop damage and being slowed down.

    With chops changing I think it put more of a disconnect between ships than the recent changes. I don't think the answer is to make Cutters more offensively capable, though. Spells and Auras can be used to supplement the agility of the Cutter in efforts to help get away.


  • AhmetAhmet Wherever I wanna bePosts: 3,370Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Tl;dr version: Add submarines. Please.
    Huh. Neat.
  • ShirszaeShirszae Santo DomingoPosts: 2,971Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    So you admit that they really lost some of their edge but you still oppose them being buffed in any way?

    I mean, sure, spells and auras can be used, but the strider has those same spells and auras. So the cutter in fact has lost things, while every other ship has gained things, or at the very least maintain their same advantage with no loss.

    I think being buffed is only fair. Maybe just something like making windboost being % more effective in a cutter would go a long way. Maybe something more. I still think having some manner of actual weapon would go a long way to making people feel less fucked over, though.

    And you won't understand the cause of your grief...


    ...But you'll always follow the voices beneath.

    Inuad
  • KresslackKresslack Florida, United StatesPosts: 5,665Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    They never really had an edge outside of forceboarding, which has been my point all along. What exactly did they lose that other ships didn't? They can still navigate around chops, and they can try navigating through them, but once again, being in a smaller, less capable ship is going to mean they can't move -through- chops as effectively as larger ships.

    So no, they shouldn't have access to another manner of weapon because as was already covered what weapon would fit? The reason the Armthrower does is because it's modeled as a smaller weapon.

    The people that want them buffed don't appear to be capable of coming up with a way to do that which doesn't boil down to giving the Cutter more offensive capability, for which there a multitude of reasons that doesn't make sense.


  • TahquilTahquil Posts: 3,950Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    As you just said, Kresslack, the also had the edge of being more manoeuvrable in chops making them faste and I think would count as an edge. Now a Strider or Galley can plow through without a care and now have the edge.
  • CaliraCalira Posts: 496Member, Secret Squirrel ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited July 2016
    Kresslack said:
    They never really had an edge outside of forceboarding, which has been my point all along. What exactly did they lose that other ships didn't?
    You've answered your own question: they outright lost forceboarding, which you might rightly argue is a benefit for sailing in general, but you can't deny that it was still their only feasible means of offence. They also lost the ability to use both Cloaking and Wavecall, which is a huge blow to their defensive potential.

    On the other hand, the aggressors have gained many advantages that the Windcutters have seen no answer to. Striders can sail through chops, while Windcutters are nearly stopped dead. Ship weapons were substantially buffed, while it still takes ~14 seconds to clear rigging in a Windcutter - again, you can argue that this is a great change overall, but it also changed the dynamics considerably. It's fine if you think that all these changes are good, and it's fine for you to argue that Windcutters deserve their sorry state, but it does no good to insult folk who disagree with you.

    If you like practical suggestions, then here's two off the top of my head, either one of which would be a great boon:
    -Make clearing rigging and figurehead take half the time (5s instead of 10s) on a Windcutter to compensate for the fact that onagers can't miss
    -Restore the ability for Windcutters to fit Cloaking and Wavecall on the same figurehead. Then maybe they would have the tools to take your advice of being clever
    Shirszae
  • KresslackKresslack Florida, United StatesPosts: 5,665Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I'm not insulting anyone, not sure where you're drawing that from. The notion of using Forceboarding as a -defensive- manouvere contradicts itself. Forceboarding was always an offensive measure. All ships lost Forceboarding, not just Cutters. Just like Cutters can still use Cloaking OR Wavecall, same as all other ships (unless I'm mistaken on that part, if I am, let me know).

    None of those "practical" suggestions are very practical because they only apply to giving Windcutters and advantage without changing anything for other ships based on the same mechanic. You want only Windcutters to be able to use Cloaking and Wavecall on the same figurehead, or only Windcutters to be able to clear rigging at half speed. Despite these not being mechanics strictly confined to Windcutters. So basically you're petitioning for added advantage(s) on Windcutters exclusively.

    Here's some ideas for practical suggestions to be considered, which I was waiting to see if anyone would bother making:

    - Re-evaluate accuracy levels based on variables such as ship speed and distance to determine if a the miss percentage needs to be adjusted (I personally wasn't privy to the fact that Onagers can't miss).

    - Reduce the cooldown for rigging clearing overall (not just for one ship). Shouldn't matter to Cutters, because they can't tangle rigging to begin with. OR

    - Allow spidershot/chainshot able to be fired from either the Arcadian thrower, or introduce a smaller version of the Onager which can be substituted in for the thrower, allowing those ammo types to be used within appropriate range.

    - Allow sea spells to be changed whilst at sea, perhaps for an increased energy cost.

    Those are more practical suggestions than just dumping advantages into the Windcutter without changing anything else. You know you could also try throwing out a whirlpool or two while being pursued. The chances of a Strider having Wavecall set to their figurehead are probably at least 50/50. Just a thought.


    Calira
  • CaliraCalira Posts: 496Member, Secret Squirrel ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    I was under the impression that missing was no longer a mechanic, and that all ship weapons auto-hit under a variable aiming delay. I also really like the idea of somehow giving Windcutters access to the afflicting ammo types.

    The reason behind my suggested tweaks specifically applying to Windcutters is that I don't wish to affect Strider vs. Strider vs. Wargalley vs. Wargalley at all. As for mechanics behaving slightly differently on different ships, there's already a huge precident for that. Off the top of my head:
    -Smaller ships turn faster
    -Smaller ships gain more benefit from Wavecall
    -Smaller ships gain benefit from wind closer to the origin
    -Windcutters have the hard-coded restriction to only getting access to Arms
    -Bigger ships are better able to ignore chops
    -Bigger ships gain more out of sails/rowing

    If we want each type of ship to be unique with its own role (with the caveat that bigger ships should be capable of more - which they absolutely are and nobody has argued against), then it makes sense for each ship to have unique advantages that fit in with that role. Since the role of Windcutters in terms of ship combat is exclusively that of 'prey', then it makes sense to give them them unique tools that let them succeed at that role.
  • KresslackKresslack Florida, United StatesPosts: 5,665Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I've been adjusting to the changes since my return same as everyone, both sailing (recently) on a Cutter and a Strider. I simply assumed missing still happened, which I guess I shouldn't have. That doesn't detract from the fact that previous experience, and recent experience, make the argument for bolstering Windcutters to this point a rather far stretched and overreaching. I've not been the only one to point this out, just perhaps the most vocal.


  • JonathinJonathin Retirement hole.Posts: 3,279Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Kresslack said:

    - Re-evaluate accuracy levels based on variables such as ship speed and distance to determine if a the miss percentage needs to be adjusted (I personally wasn't privy to the fact that Onagers can't miss).

    I'm only here to point out that I suggested exactly this years ago and included weather factoring into it as well. I'm still all in favour of this.

    My site will remain up, but will not be maintained. The repository will continue to have scripts added to it if I decide to play another game. Maybe I'll see you around in Starmourn!
    Tutorials and scripts  The Repository

    SiduriKresslack
  • JinsunJinsun TN, USAPosts: 2,841Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited July 2016
    Anaria said:
    Yesterday was pretty awesome actually. We formed up a big convoy with sea striders to protect the trade ships. I recorded the whole thing using mudlets replay feature. Maybe one of these days I'll make a youtube video out of it. Five minutes into the trade run we ran straight into a pirate who was intending to intercept the trades ships and sank him. Good times.

    There is a pecking order to the oceans when it comes to ships and combat. Windcutters have never been able to stand up to sea striders, forceboarding aside, since even before the overhaul began. Nobody cared because the windcutter had a lot more utility back then to make up for this deficiency. The trouble is, with trades being so crappy for so long, cutter owners have been totally screwed trying to make them work in an ocean that is all about combat capability now (against other ships or monsters).

    The answer is not to beef up cutters. The answer is to beef up trades and give cutters a purpose again. The 200K deal was a small step in the right direction, but we need more. We really need the 25 bound credit and Mayan Crown deals back, even if they are rare.

    That being said, I'm not against wardiscs doing a small amount of hull damage again or something. I think giving them ballistas though might be a step too far, though I'm not totally against that either.
    You didn't intercept a pirate looking to take down ships. Passed right by you guys without targeting or fire a shot. Was on my way to Zanzi to do the trade route. You guys gave chase and outnumbered someone not looking for a fight. You're not some hero. You're griefy at best.

    I think we should call the cutter restrictions what they are: A cash grab for IRE. YOu have to spend twice as much to not constantly be a victim on the sea.
    image
    Borran
  • BorranBorran Posts: 845Member ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Just give ships the ability to kamikaze. Don't want to run? Then just spearhead the enemy ship and have them sink with you.

  • DaeirDaeir AustraliaPosts: 6,276Member, Secret Squirrel @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Look, I'm all for harping on IRE when they make cash grabs, but the cutter-strider dichotomy is not one of these things. If anything, it is one of the truly rare in-game differences that is actually attributable to a flat difference in gold cost over someone's wallet size simply being a factor for availability.

    I sailed a cutter solo for months and never particularly felt like much of a victim, though that was during ye olde days of the wavecall 11 all stop shipcloak feint.

    I do feel like cutters should probably be adjusted slightly to give mild advantages to solo captains given their roles, perhaps with an intercardinal speed bonus when tacking into the wind. Outside of that, maybe giving them access to a single onager might be worthwhile. That way, they can use a lot of the CC shots to lever their superior agility over larger targets. However, they should be significantly more vulnerable to sail damage in return, allowing strider/galley captains to capitalize on poor positioning to remove some of that agility advantage.
  • AnariaAnaria Posts: 184Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Jinsun said:

    You didn't intercept a pirate looking to take down ships. Passed right by you guys without targeting or fire a shot. Was on my way to Zanzi to do the trade route. You guys gave chase and outnumbered someone not looking for a fight. You're not some hero. You're griefy at best.


    image
  • JinsunJinsun TN, USAPosts: 2,841Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I mean do you think you could sink anything bigger than a cutter with just your ship? 
    image
  • MorthifMorthif Posts: 1,522Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    does ship repair still feel a little underwhelming to anyone else? It seems like if we ran from a seamonster and waited to heal a bit we'd probably lose the fight to reset timer. 
    Shimi
  • KietKiet Posts: 2,734Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    As far as I can tell, ship repair speed can vary widely based on a number of factors I have yet to fully confirm. It's pretty fast when nothing's hindering it, though. If it were faster no one would ever sink.
    Shirszae
  • AnariaAnaria Posts: 184Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Repair speed is based on a couple factors, yes. Number of shipmates up to a certain limit and crew xp being the two most significant. I actually feel repair speed is about what it should be to ensure that ships are actually sinkable. That said, it doesn't vary as "widely" as you might imagine between the mid and higher crew xp levels.
  • KietKiet Posts: 2,734Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I wasn't talking about crew/shipmates numbers/xp, I imagine Morthif is aware of that and has a fully crewed ship!
  • AnariaAnaria Posts: 184Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Kiet said:
    I wasn't talking about crew/shipmates numbers/xp, I imagine Morthif is aware of that and has a fully crewed ship!
    Then what were you talking about? I haven't observed any other factors that influence repair speed, other than being at anchor affording a small bonus.
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