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Crafting / Customisation Standards

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  • SarapisSarapis Member, Administrator Posts: 3,382 Achaean staff
    edited January 2016
    Halos said:
     Maybe it never should've existed to begin with, which is also fair if true.
    Yep. No reason to double down on mistakes, like you say, but I also want to point out that this isn't black and white, even though approvals are by necessity black and white. There's a spectrum, and it's an immensely subtle and wide spectrum. There are no bright, clear, simple lines to be drawn and so it's completely inevitable, especially with something where we can't spend much time on it, that there'll be inconsistencies, both real and perceived. We work to minimize those of course but we'll never be able to get rid of them. It's just too broad a subject matter.
    ShirszaeTessa
  • HalosHalos Member Posts: 1,390 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Let me help you

    Aioli: Literally 'garlic and oil' in Provencal. Found as an Achaean ingredient here in Ashtan
    Amaretto: Oh no italian. Means 'little bitter'. An almond-based liqueur. Here.
    Andouille: Cajun smoked pork sausage. An ingredient here in Ashtan
    Bourbon: American whiskey. Named after the French Bourbons? Here in Hashan.
    Brose: Eleusis is so Scottish. Served here in a biscuit with whiskey
    Cajun: Rustic cuisine from French-speaking Canada or Louisiana.  Found here.
    Cheddar: Cheese originating in the British village of Cheddar. Found here, here, here
    Cockaleekie: Scottish chicken and leek soup. Sold here
    Colcannon: Regional Scottish potato and cabbage soup. Sold here in Eleusis.
    Creme de menthe: Peppermint liqueur. French for 'cream of mint'. An ingredient here
    Crepe suzette: Suzette must be Cinnabeth's sister. Here in Ashtan
    Danish: Danish pastry. Where is Denmark in Achaea? It's in Hashan, apparently
    Gataeu: A rich, creamy French-style cake. Served here in Eleusis
    Jalapeno: A fat, mildly spicy pepper. Named for Mexican town Jalapa. Ingredient here and here
    Kielbasa: It just means 'sausage' in Polish. Sold here in Eleusis.
    Linguine: Flat noodles. Linguine means "little tongues" in italian. Found here
    Parmesan cheese: You don't know where Parma is? Targossas stuffs mushrooms with its cheese, here
    Sauerkraut: German for 'sour cabbage'. Fermented cabbage. Ingredient also here in Cyrene
    Swiss cheese: Emmental. A cheese which originated around Switzerland. Ingredient Here, also Cyrene
    Sushi: Where do i start. Here, Cyrene
    Scotch: Malt or grain whiskey made in Scotland. Found as an ingredient here
    Wasabi: Spicy Japanese condiment paste. Found as an ingredient here

    Now, are any of these terms currently allowed in crafter recipes? Please advise

    KryptonJanna
  • KryptonKrypton shi-KhurenaMember Posts: 1,701 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Where are the Cajuns and Creoles in Achaea? Pretty sure I don't have Explorer points for those yet.
    (Mhaldor): Herenicus says, "Apologies, I am in-and-out of hold with Verizon wireless customer service."
    HalosKayeil
  • MadelyneMadelyne East Coast, USAMember Posts: 78 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Sarapis said:
    I also want to point out that this isn't black and white, even though approvals are by necessity black and white. There's a spectrum, and it's an immensely subtle and wide spectrum. There are no bright, clear, simple lines to be drawn and so it's completely inevitable, especially with something where we can't spend much time on it, that there'll be inconsistencies, both real and perceived. We work to minimize those of course but we'll never be able to get rid of them. It's just too broad a subject matter.
    @Sarapis I added this quote to http://wiki.achaea.com/Talk:Ingredients with a link back to your comment, for anyone who works on the wiki page but might have missed this conversation. Your explanation was too perfectly phrased not to include.
  • KayeilKayeil Washington StateMember Posts: 2,588 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Mmmm cajun and creole food is so good. If that's allowed, I know what's next on my design list!
    What doesn't kill you gives you exp.

  • TreyTrey Member Posts: 4,226 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Halos said:
    Let me help you

    Aioli: Literally 'garlic and oil' in Provencal. Found as an Achaean ingredient here in Ashtan
    Amaretto: Oh no italian. Means 'little bitter'. An almond-based liqueur. Here.
    Andouille: Cajun smoked pork sausage. An ingredient here in Ashtan
    Bourbon: American whiskey. Named after the French Bourbons? Here in Hashan.
    Brose: Eleusis is so Scottish. Served here in a biscuit with whiskey
    Cajun: Rustic cuisine from French-speaking Canada or Louisiana.  Found here.
    Cheddar: Cheese originating in the British village of Cheddar. Found here, here, here
    Cockaleekie: Scottish chicken and leek soup. Sold here
    Colcannon: Regional Scottish potato and cabbage soup. Sold here in Eleusis.
    Creme de menthe: Peppermint liqueur. French for 'cream of mint'. An ingredient here
    Crepe suzette: Suzette must be Cinnabeth's sister. Here in Ashtan
    Danish: Danish pastry. Where is Denmark in Achaea? It's in Hashan, apparently
    Gataeu: A rich, creamy French-style cake. Served here in Eleusis
    Jalapeno: A fat, mildly spicy pepper. Named for Mexican town Jalapa. Ingredient here and here
    Kielbasa: It just means 'sausage' in Polish. Sold here in Eleusis.
    Linguine: Flat noodles. Linguine means "little tongues" in italian. Found here
    Parmesan cheese: You don't know where Parma is? Targossas stuffs mushrooms with its cheese, here
    Sauerkraut: German for 'sour cabbage'. Fermented cabbage. Ingredient also here in Cyrene
    Swiss cheese: Emmental. A cheese which originated around Switzerland. Ingredient Here, also Cyrene
    Sushi: Where do i start. Here, Cyrene
    Scotch: Malt or grain whiskey made in Scotland. Found as an ingredient here
    Wasabi: Spicy Japanese condiment paste. Found as an ingredient here

    Now, are any of these terms currently allowed in crafter recipes? Please advise

    There's etouffee somewhere too, I just can't remember where. Bourbon also found in Mhaldor's new-ish bar.

    Trilliana
  • KezKez Member Posts: 646 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    I'd rather call cheese what it is, by which I mean to describe it, than to skirt the rule by creating parallels between a rejected thing and an achaean thing. Calling mozzarella buffalo instead is a way of describing the cheese(its source). Calling cheddar nimickan is just... rude on multiple levels. If I want to use cheddar it's going to be identified by physical senses like taste, touch, and sight. That makes for a much more engaging recipe anyway.

    Same goes for pasta. There are plenty of ways to describe different noodles. Elbow pasta for macaroni, egg noodles for ramen, etc.

    Bread. Describe the smell, taste, texture (hell, density), herbs if present. It can be described in as much detail as necessary, or just left as "bread" to let the person using it see what they want instead of what the crafter wants.

    Just describe it and the people using the item will take it from there.

    I used to cook like this in the start, then I got lazy when I saw what everybody else was doing and went for the easy sales. I'm going back to it now. Creating things in achaea is a lot of fun for me and Kez refers to designs as inventions. Cobbling together the inventions of others would be unappealing. She wouldn't travel the world to find the best cheese for her platter; she'd milk a previously unexploited creature and make the cheese on her own porch to see what she could do with it, then make the platter all about introducing the cheese to the eater.

    Yeah this post may come across as bitchy and superior, and I am a little sorry about that, but I enjoy discussing and speculating on what works and what doesn't in order to alter MY thoughts and improve MY ability to get every recipe approved on the first attempt, not to badger the approver into submission.

    Anyway. I believe this thread and the page associated was meant to collaborate on returned sketches so everyone knows what's likely to cause a rejection. I have some new input for that.

    Eat/consume pass. Devour is too subjective.
    Speed is a no-no. Not everyone will eat something quickly or slowly.

    I used to think of it as the food manipulating that rather than the person (steak=big/chewy=slow, cookie=small/easy=fast) but will manage to adjust or spend an extra 1k on every recipe until I do.

    IMO the crafting guild is the first barometer. If they don't see what you do in your design, it's a good indication that others might not either.
    TessaPaine
  • HalosHalos Member Posts: 1,390 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Trey said:
    There's etouffee somewhere too, I just can't remember where. Bourbon also found in Mhaldor's new-ish bar.
    Land crab etouffee. Fire and Spice.

    Trey
  • ReilochReiloch Member Posts: 116 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Aerek said:
    It's one thing to decide that a given food does not exist in Achaea (pancakes, waffles, pizza, etc)
    What's the deal with this, anyways? Pancakes date back to the 5th century BCE. It seems a bafflingly arbitrary thing not to allow.
  • NaverreNaverre Member Posts: 304 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Reiloch said:
    Aerek said:
    It's one thing to decide that a given food does not exist in Achaea (pancakes, waffles, pizza, etc)
    What's the deal with this, anyways? Pancakes date back to the 5th century BCE. It seems a bafflingly arbitrary thing not to allow.
    The pancake ban went back to the Order of the Pancake, a very, very long time ago. The banning of pancakes from Achaea went hand-in-hand with shouts requiring gold, if I'm remembering correctly (probably not, I was still in middle school back then... damn). People were being needlessly silly and Sarapis got pissed about it. There should be a public post by Sarapis waaaaaaay back in the news about it, if you care to look, but a quick searchnews didn't show it to me.
    ReilochTrilliana
  • KietKiet Member Posts: 1,443 @ - Epic Achaean
    Reiloch said:
    Aerek said:
    It's one thing to decide that a given food does not exist in Achaea (pancakes, waffles, pizza, etc)
    What's the deal with this, anyways? Pancakes date back to the 5th century BCE. It seems a bafflingly arbitrary thing not to allow.
    There used to be a clan called like the order of the pancakes and they shouted about pancakes near constantly back when shouts were free.
    Reiloch
  • SkyeSkye The Duchess BellatereMember, Seafaring Liason Posts: 2,397 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    The story dates back to when shouts were free and everyone could shout anywhere. And everyone was dumb. Somebody would shout about how much they love pancakes, and then someone would shout about how much they love waffles. And it'd go back and forth for like 5 minutes with nothing but pancakes/waffles until a God told them to shut up. 


    Reiloch
  • HalosHalos Member Posts: 1,390 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited January 2016
    Reiloch said:
    Aerek said:
    It's one thing to decide that a given food does not exist in Achaea (pancakes, waffles, pizza, etc)
    What's the deal with this, anyways? Pancakes date back to the 5th century BCE 4th century AF. It seems a bafflingly arbitrary perfectly understandable thing not to allow.
    PUBLIC NEWS #10867                                      (04/02/2003 at 08:55)  
    From   : Ignifer Khadgar Dalaran, the Ruby Mage
    To     : Everyone
    Subject: The Fellowship of the Pancake!
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Attention! Remember Khadgar's Posse? Well, we have a new name! Check our
    scroll, CLANHELP PANCAKE and consider joining the Fellowship of the
    Pancake! Feel free to ask Tiax, Adanedhel, Dakidark, or myself to join
    up. Become the infamous Sally! Have lots of friends! Play fun games like
    'Kill the Khadgar'! Join today!
     
    Penned by my hand on the 10th of Valnuary, in the year 331 AF.
    PUBLIC NEWS #10908                                      (04/09/2003 at 08:34) 
    From   : Ignifer Khadgar Dalaran, the Ruby Mage
    To     : Everyone
    Subject: The Invasion of the Cookies
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Greetings Fellow Achaeans,
    What a day is this, that the gingerbread men uprise and take over our
    cities! What a day is this, that we sit idly by as they romp throughout
    our streets, killing those who oppose them. The Pastries have revolted,
    and deemed themselves delicious! Well my friends, this is a day when we
    will fight back! I, Khadgar Dalaran, the brave leader of the Fellowship
    of the Pancake hereby declare war on the armies of the cookie. May the
    gingerbread men be brought down in the masses! May ladyfinger be slain
    and rightly eaten by the hands of the Fellowship! Any of you who wish to
    join my cause, rise to the occasion and contact me. We accept anyone,
    regardless of race, clan, order, city, or guild. We wish only to destroy
    the Cookies. Long Live The Pancakes!
                                -=Khadgar, Wielder of the Pancake=-
     
    Penned by my hand on the 2nd of Daedalan, in the year 332 AF.
    PUBLIC NEWS #11113                                      (05/13/2003 at 12:59) 
    From   : Caliginous Magus, Khadgar Dalaran, Hero of Sapience
    To     : Everyone
    Subject: Consequences
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Speaking on behalf of the Fellowship of the Pancake,
    So, Oakstone, you dare to institute an herb ban? And everyone else, you
    dare to do stuff? And the rest of you, you dare to not do stuff? Well,
    this is just unacceptable. The world is not yours to run, stop acting
    like it is. Until this issue is resolved, the Fellowship of the Pancake
    is issuing a formal Pancake ban on the members of any City and Oakstone
    and anyone else that I don't like or who wears silly pants on
    Wednesdays.

    Here are the terms of the Pancake Ban:
    1.  No Pancakes will be given or sold to anyone on the Pancake Ban list.
    2.  Well #1 pretty much covers it.

    If you wish to get pancakes, you are going to have to join the
    Fellowship. I am sorry that if must come to this, but desperate times
    bring desperate measures.

         That Pancake Guy - Khadgar Dalaran
     
    Penned by my hand on the 23rd of Phaestian, in the year 334 AF.
    PUBLIC NEWS #12313                                      (02/28/2004 at 02:20) 
    From   : Penguin Prankster Kuntar, Suicide Jester
    To     : Everyone
    Subject: Success!
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Thanks to a generous clan sellage from Atremis, the pie clan lives as
    'The Achaea Institute of Pie, Cheese, and Brew'! At last, the evils of
    cake can be destroyed forever with the union of these three great
    powers! Unite, so that we may destroy cake, savor fine foods, and SING
    DRUNKENLY!

    Contact CLANHELP PCB today! You know you want to!

    P.S. To the Dark Order of the Pancake...I've always preferred the term
    'flapjacks'...so you're grooveh.
     
    Penned by my hand on the 22nd of Chronos, in the year 357 AF.

    :(

    ReilochTrillianaJanna
  • ReilochReiloch Member Posts: 116 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    I want the two minutes of my life I spent reading those news posts back.

    No words. Should have sent a poet.
  • LaurynLauryn Member Posts: 1
    edited March 2016
    Today, one of my designs was rejected because it used dashes. That's despite the Crafting Punctuation help file explicitly encouraging dashes. And yes, they were properly used. After having this same design rejected multiple times (first for a pedantic spelling preference [not UK vs US], then for double hyphens, then for single hyphens), and having to spend 1000 gold each time (draining the bank account fast on one design)...

    I explained the situation in a letter to Amarisse, ending with the polite request:
    So I ask that the design please be reconsidered. If the use of dashes is no longer allowed, can you please update HELP 9.37.5?

    Thank you,
    Lauryn

    The immediate response:

    Greetings Lauryn,

    Thank you for your letter! Whilst I am quite busy and therefore cannot update the HELP files with every little possibility, dashes are very rarely approved.

    Sincerely,
    Amarisse, Secretary of the Crafting Guild

    1. "Every little possibility" makes it sound like I'm being nitpicky, which I don't think I was. That kind of wording made this sound like a condescending response to what I think was a very reasonable inquiry. It basically felt like a slightly-less-rude way of saying, "Quit bugging me, I have more important things to do even though this is exactly what I'm here for."

    2. If they're "very rarely approved," why are they in the file?

    3. Oh right, because you're "too busy" to fix it. I'd buy that if the change had only happened a week ago, but sadly, that's not what's going on here. A couple of years ago, one of my designs was rejected because it had a comma in the appearance line, even though that is still acceptable in help 9.37.5. They couldn't find a few seconds to update the scroll (or delete it altogether, might as well) over the course of two years. Right.

    Thinking about the accumulated time it takes to reject dozens or more designs like this, I have a feeling it would take less time to simply fix the scroll. Even the time it took to write the above response to me is probably similar to what it would take to just fix this once and for all.

    4. I get that it's unrealistic to expect every single possibility to be accounted for, especially in terms of actual items allowed (as in the rest of this thread). But if you've made an extensive help file detailing exactly what punctuation is and isn't allowed... you can't expect people to keep up while you make it up as you go along.

    5. I also get that designing/crafting is at the bottom of Achaean admins' priority list. Tecton said as much at a Q&A last year. I know combat is where the bread and butter is. But that doesn't mean you shouldn't take any other players seriously.

    Compared to a lot of games, designing in Achaea costs a lot. I mean, you spend 200 credits to get the license, 1734 or whatever it is lessons to learn the skill, then tens of thousands of gold to submit and pick up a single design. And with shops so hard to get (at least, in Cyrene, where there is almost no turnover), and having to pay even more just to advertise your services on the market channel, you're hard-pressed to ever make any money off it, let alone recoup your investment (unlike other trade skills like harvesting/remedies). That's without paying hundreds of USD for trade artifacts.

    So you do all that just for the enjoyment of being creative. You are extremely careful to jump through every hoop and adhere strictly to every listed rule... only to have your work rejected because of a completely arbitrary whim. (Maybe it's not arbitrary, maybe there is a legit reason for the changes, but in the absence of clear communication about that, we're left guessing and speculating.)

    Then when you get confused and frustrated, they talk down to you, treat you like an annoying pebble in their shoe, like you're the one being unreasonable. If that's how it goes, they don't deserve my money. Of course, a refund will never happen, but they certainly won't get another penny in the future. I'm not whining, I'm not expecting special treatment. I'm simply expecting to get what I paid for, and to be treated with as much respect as a big-spending player. I had an Iron Elite account for a while there, was hoping to buy credits soon (I'm moving house so I can't afford it right now), but if my money isn't enough or good enough, I'll gladly take it elsewhere. This is a game, a hobby. If they take the fun out of it, what's the point? They certainly don't deserve what little time, energy, and money I have to spare.

    Also, any trace of sympathy for whoever is behind Amarisse today evaporated when they said, "That sort of attitude will not get it done sooner." That was after they rejected it within moments (for the third time), but something like an hour later, were apparently taking their time out of sheer spite (not a baseless assumption, given what they said), so in a moment of complete frustration, I blurted out, "Ugh, [censored] approve it already!"

    "Should" I have kept calm and sycophantic? Perhaps. Would it have made a difference? Probably not; they were already withholding the design just because they can. Designing things here has been my main source of distraction from the grief of losing a loved one Thursday - not that that's anyone's problem, but I am human and I had a moment of unprofessionalism. But you shouldn't have to kiss up to egos just to get what you paid for and to be taken seriously. Whether I let my frustration get the best of me or not is beside the point, as this is clearly an ongoing issue that they have absolutely zero desire to address. Blaming the slowness on my frustration is so backwards and insulting.

    Janna
  • ShirszaeShirszae Caer WitrinMember Posts: 2,656 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited March 2016
    I am sorry for your loss, truly. But I do think you could have approached this in a better way. I know what it is like to have your temper get the best of you, but Amarisse -is- very helpful when you are willing to give as well as take. You say you are a human being, and you are right. But so is the person behind Amarisse. Like literally anywhere else, a bad attitude will earn you very little that is worth it.

    Its not even a matter of being sycophantic, just a matter of playing your cards in a smart way.

    And you won't understand the cause of your grief...

    image

    ...But you'll always follow the voices beneath.

    Janna
  • HalosHalos Member Posts: 1,390 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Now I want to see the design

  • AtalkezAtalkez Member Posts: 3,518 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited March 2016
    Probably could have handled it better @Lauryn, but I wouldn't say you necessarily went overboard either.

    Overall, our AB/Help files are seriously in need of updates. Some of our skills have been changed 2 or three times with no changes to the files. Some skills have been added and aren't even listed in the AB files.

    I'm kind of in awe that this is the case. Traditionally, any changes to anything comes immediately with a documentation change prior to any changes actually going live. Compare it to say, the TOS. If something was changed in the TOS, the documentation would have to be updated immediately to reflect this. You can't wait 6 months to update it and expect to be covered under the new terms.

    Edit: Perhaps that is part of the reason for the most recent coder call, to free up more time for edits like this. Unsure, but I do believe some more emphasis needs to be placed on the Help files being accurate representations of what is acceptable and what isn't.


    You hug Aurora compassionately.
    PieraHalosShirszae
  • TectonTecton The Garden of the GodsAdministrator Posts: 2,469 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Atalkez said:
    Probably could have handled it better @Lauryn, but I wouldn't say you necessarily went overboard either.

    Overall, our AB/Help files are seriously in need of updates. Some of our skills have been changed 2 or three times with no changes to the files. Some skills have been added and aren't even listed in the AB files.

    I'm kind of in awe that this is the case. Traditionally, any changes to anything comes immediately with a documentation change prior to any changes actually going live. Compare it to say, the TOS. If something was changed in the TOS, the documentation would have to be updated immediately to reflect this. You can't wait 6 months to update it and expect to be covered under the new terms.

    Edit: Perhaps that is part of the reason for the most recent coder call, to free up more time for edits like this. Unsure, but I do believe some more emphasis needs to be placed on the Help files being accurate representations of what is acceptable and what isn't.
    If there's something not updated, file a TYPO and let us know, we'll get it sorted out.
    Atalkez
  • AhmetAhmet Wherever I wanna beMember Posts: 2,871 @ - Epic Achaean
    Something random that may or may not need to be added, functional compasses are not allowed in designs. Ran into a bit of a snafu when someone ended up thinking my compass rose was a working compass.
    Huh. Neat.
  • TahquilTahquil Member Posts: 3,458 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited March 2016
    I don't understand what (not UK vs US) means. Was it Arabic?

    I will also wIt to see the design before commenting whether you were hard done by or just throwing a tantrum.
  • AtalkezAtalkez Member Posts: 3,518 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Tahquil said:
    I don't understand what (not UK vs US) means. Was it Arabic?
    Things like, color vs colour. Color is the US spelling taught, while Colour is the UK version.

    Center vs Centre, etc


    You hug Aurora compassionately.
  • HalosHalos Member Posts: 1,390 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited March 2016
    Tahquil said:
    I don't understand what (not UK vs US) means. Was it Arabic?

    I will also wIt to see the design before commenting whether you were hard done by or just throwing a tantrum.
    It was a non-UK-specific spelling preference, Atalkez. That may not mean anything if the term in question is related to Achaea-specific canon.

    Atalkez
  • ArtemisArtemis Moderator Posts: 58 Immortal
    One thing to remember, is HELP 9.37.5 does not say what can and cannot be used in design, just how to properly use punctuation.
    ShirszaeFrederichTrey
  • FrederichFrederich Member Posts: 887 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    I mean.  I messed up on my first 5 designs ((all at once mind you because hahaha.  My typing class was wrong about spacing)).

    I learned from the class that after every period (for sentence ends) that you put a double space.  Makes it more legible (and easier for me to read because my eyes mess up words really badly if they're all jumbled together))...

    It's not something worth quitting Achaea over though.  You live and learn, yeah? =)
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