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Crafting / Customisation Standards

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  • KietKiet Posts: 1,580 @ - Epic Achaean
    You can check help files from the website anyway!
  • KandraKandra Posts: 189 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    edited January 2016
    That's what Tibitha is doing with this thread.
    http://wiki.achaea.com/Crafting_Standards

    Noting... our patron recently rejected the emdash on a house item. Don't know if that's new or personal taste.
  • KryptonKrypton shi-KhurenaPosts: 1,752 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Wouldn't mind barring dashes from all descriptions.

    Thanks to fixed character font width, there are no true endashes or emdashes in Achaea anyway—only hyphens.

    I don't think I've ever seen a dash in a room description—they would be ugly anyway.
    (Mhaldor): Herenicus says, "Apologies, I am in-and-out of hold with Verizon wireless customer service."
  • KryptonKrypton shi-KhurenaPosts: 1,752 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Artemis said:
    Some updates to that wiki page have been made for your convenience! 
    Thanks! As I suspected:
    *Hyphens. Often overused, and used incorrectly! General guidelines: Yes in words, e.g. passer-by. No as a replacement for a comma e.g. "A gold rose blossoms on the face of the ring - shining lustrously in any available light"
     
    And for the main discussion at hand:
    *Nothing live/moving. Plants, flowers, fur, beads, splinters of wood, so long as they are firmly dead/inanimate, are fine. A pendant with a dried flower pressed between the backing and glass is fine. A crown of twigs and blooming rosebuds is not (the twigs are fine, the roses are not).
    (Mhaldor): Herenicus says, "Apologies, I am in-and-out of hold with Verizon wireless customer service."
    Aereidhna
  • ArtemisArtemis Posts: 58 Immortal
    Also, to preemptively answer the "what about this very specific example I have?" or "but this one thing I submitted was rejected" or "but on NDS PUBLIC there is this thing, so why is mine denied?!?" questions, please defer to the two statements at the very top of the page!
  • KayeilKayeil Washington StatePosts: 2,616 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    It first says... 

    • Nothing live/moving. Plants, flowers, fur, beads, splinters of wood, so long as they are firmly dead/inanimate, are fine. A pendant with a dried flower pressed between the backing and glass is fine. A crown of twigs and blooming rosebuds is not (the twigs are fine, the roses are not).
    Then says...

    • Nothing that is alive or was previously alive (excluding bone) maybe used in jewellery.
    Except a crown is in jewellery, and leather is an option and was a part of something alive. Should the second one be deleted or ammended?
    What doesn't kill you gives you exp.

    Aereidhna
  • AerekAerek East Tennessee, USAPosts: 1,802 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Krypton said:
    Wouldn't mind barring dashes from all descriptions.

    Thanks to fixed character font width, there are no true endashes or emdashes in Achaea anyway—only hyphens.

    I don't think I've ever seen a dash in a room description—they would be ugly anyway.
    Hey, don't hate on my emdash. Far prettier than parenthesis if you want to offer some clarification without cramming in a whole new sentence to do so.
    -- Grounded in one perspective, what we perceive is an exaggeration of the truth.
  • KryptonKrypton shi-KhurenaPosts: 1,752 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I love the emdash. I used it twice in that quote.

    But you can't write an emdash in Achaea. You can double-hyphenate (--), but it's poor substitute.
    (Mhaldor): Herenicus says, "Apologies, I am in-and-out of hold with Verizon wireless customer service."
  • ArtemisArtemis Posts: 58 Immortal
    Kayeil said:
    It first says... 

    • Nothing live/moving. Plants, flowers, fur, beads, splinters of wood, so long as they are firmly dead/inanimate, are fine. A pendant with a dried flower pressed between the backing and glass is fine. A crown of twigs and blooming rosebuds is not (the twigs are fine, the roses are not).
    Then says...

    • Nothing that is alive or was previously alive (excluding bone) maybe used in jewellery.
    Except a crown is in jewellery, and leather is an option and was a part of something alive. Should the second one be deleted or ammended?
    The bottom one in your quote looks to be player added, and should be removed! The top should be clear enough. 
    KayeilAereidhna
  • TibithaTibitha Posts: 742 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Artemis said:
    Kayeil said:
    It first says... 

    • Nothing live/moving. Plants, flowers, fur, beads, splinters of wood, so long as they are firmly dead/inanimate, are fine. A pendant with a dried flower pressed between the backing and glass is fine. A crown of twigs and blooming rosebuds is not (the twigs are fine, the roses are not).
    Then says...

    • Nothing that is alive or was previously alive (excluding bone) maybe used in jewellery.
    Except a crown is in jewellery, and leather is an option and was a part of something alive. Should the second one be deleted or ammended?
    The bottom one in your quote looks to be player added, and should be removed! The top should be clear enough. 
    Ah yes, I added that (as that was the response I got). Feel free to nuke it now that it's been clarified.
  • KayeilKayeil Washington StatePosts: 2,616 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Tibitha said:
    Artemis said:
    Kayeil said:
    It first says... 

    • Nothing live/moving. Plants, flowers, fur, beads, splinters of wood, so long as they are firmly dead/inanimate, are fine. A pendant with a dried flower pressed between the backing and glass is fine. A crown of twigs and blooming rosebuds is not (the twigs are fine, the roses are not).
    Then says...

    • Nothing that is alive or was previously alive (excluding bone) maybe used in jewellery.
    Except a crown is in jewellery, and leather is an option and was a part of something alive. Should the second one be deleted or ammended?
    The bottom one in your quote looks to be player added, and should be removed! The top should be clear enough. 
    Ah yes, I added that (as that was the response I got). Feel free to nuke it now that it's been clarified.
    I don't know how to edit those things and am afraid of screwing it up. But for all I know, it could be more simple than I am thinking it is. Hopefully someone who knows how will get around to it.
    What doesn't kill you gives you exp.

  • MadelyneMadelyne East Coast, USAPosts: 78 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Kez said:

    It would be nice if each new person overseeing the crafting guild would publish revised expectations in detail, though, because learning what they prefer through trial and error can be frustrating and sometimes uninformative. This isn't uninformative. I'm rambling. But I did have a design rejected for being unsuitable, so I issued to ask in what way it was unsuitable so I could fix it and they replied because it's unsuitable. THAT was frustrating.
    I agree. It's incredibly frustrating. I asked that mozzarella and alfredo be added to the "not allowed" list at the bottom of HELP CRAFTING GUIDELINES, and was told to "refer to #9" in that list.
  • ArtemisArtemis Posts: 58 Immortal
    Aerek said:
    Putting out notices/updates when policies change or someone new takes over is a great idea, for both crafting and customization guidelines. You don't have to give us reasons why or tell us who the new person in charge is, we just need to know when the rules change. I know all too well it is tempting and convenient to shift stances quietly and let the world catch up on its own, but it's a small community and people talk, and that kind of confusion and frustration builds quickly into feedback loops.
    I think it is safe to say, across the board, we would love to be able to instantly update every single file the moment something changes! Alas, when there is limited resources, we need to choose what is the biggest priority. However, this leads me to the next comment...

    Madelyne said:
    Kez said:

    It would be nice if each new person overseeing the crafting guild would publish revised expectations in detail, though, because learning what they prefer through trial and error can be frustrating and sometimes uninformative. This isn't uninformative. I'm rambling. But I did have a design rejected for being unsuitable, so I issued to ask in what way it was unsuitable so I could fix it and they replied because it's unsuitable. THAT was frustrating.
    I agree. It's incredibly frustrating. I asked that mozzarella and alfredo be added to the "not allowed" list at the bottom of HELP CRAFTING GUIDELINES, and was told to "refer to #9" in that list.
    Reviewing #9 of HELP COOKING DESIGN:

    9. Suitability.
       The Crafting Council reserves the right to determine whether foods are
       suitable for Achaea's environment. Certain anachronistic foods and terms
       will not be allowed. Following is a list of some such foods; we will
       attempt to keep it up to date, but please be aware that it is not
       exhaustive.

    I think every sentence there makes it pretty clear. We simply cannot focus our time on writing some huge list of every little thing that may be denied (and then one would probably be missed, to which there would be an uproar when it was denied because it was "not on the list"). 
    ValkynTessaKyrraShirszae
  • SkyeSkye The Duchess BellaterePosts: 2,421 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    No reason why mozzarella can't be done anyway. It's a buffalo cheese. we have buffaloes. And it's been made since pre-industrial times. That's frankly all I consider when making a recipe or considering ingredients.

    Personally all I object to in terms of 'anachronistic' food designs is the pancake ban. I know why they're banned, but non-american pancakes or other flat/quickbreads have existed as a traditional source of food for other cultures for generations. :/


    KezHalosTrillianaShimi
  • TahquilTahquil Posts: 3,512 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    @Artemis : Maybe just edit out the "We will try to keep it up to date" part?
    Trey
  • KezKez Posts: 646 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    edited January 2016
    I actually like the pancake ban as a neat little quirky tradition, though I think that after all this time if they did allow pancakes we would be safe from the shouts starting back up. The addition of waffles made my eye twitch though. Nobody was spamming shouts with their worship of waffles. They just had the unfortunate distinction of being associated with pancakes (because they can both be round, made of batter, and eaten at breakfast?) and a quirky rule got expanded? Did I miss something here?

    Mozzarella... I don't understand why this would be banned. It's European, centuries of history, and not named after anything. Should be fine? Did someone try to sneak a pizza through and take the rejection as a mozzarella ban? Did someone get fed up with attempts to sneak pizza through and ban mozzarella? I love mozzarella. It's been my go-to cheese for nearly everything because it's a yummy cheese that isn't overpowering, has a pleasant texture both solid and molten, and is actually fun to eat (stringyyyyyy).

    Pizza? Why is pizza banned? Does its popularity and subsequent availability in 45 minutes or less ruin immersion? Pizza's been around with that name for over a thousand years, AND originated in the right parts of the world.
    The word "pizza" was first documented in 997 AD in Gaeta, Italy, and successively in different parts of Central and Southern Italy. The precursor of pizza was probably the focaccia, a flat bread known to the Romans as "panis focacius", to which toppings were then added.

    In Ancient Rome, panis focacius was a flat bread baked on the hearth. The word is derived from the Latin focus meaning "hearth, place for baking." The basic recipe is thought by some to have originated with the Etruscans or ancient Greeks, but today it is widely associated with Ligurian cuisine.

    Getting involved in Achaean features really makes you learn a lot of random stuff. I don't really want to make a pizza, but if I did, I'm guessing focaccia would get someone their pizza.

    Trilliana
  • SkyeSkye The Duchess BellaterePosts: 2,421 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    The waffle/pancake ban was a blanket ban. It wasn't just people shouting about their love for pancakes, but there was a waffle faction and a pancake faction. 


    KezTrilliana
  • KezKez Posts: 646 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    edited January 2016
    Ah. I only remember the pancake shouts then. My bad!

    Sadly this stuff still happens. I think they've moved on to cupcake fanaticism.
    SkyeTrilliana
  • SarapisSarapis Posts: 3,383 Achaean staff
    edited January 2016
    You guys need to get over it. 

    1. If the US Supreme Court, whose entire professional job is doing this, can't come up with a definitive list of what constitutes 'obscene', instead basically boiling down to "we know it when we see it" I'm not sure why you expect the volunteers that manage crafting to do any better. It's the same problem, fundamentally. Setting down guidelines to the individual word/term in any kind of comprehensive way isn't time efficient and just encourages people to find stupid ways around them.

    2. I'm not sure why there's any impression that just because a food exists in real life during year <x> it should exist in Achaea. As the help file says, foods that we don't feel fit will be rejected. It's pretty irrelevant when it was created irl. We allow bras, for instance, which didn't look like most of the ones in Achaea look until the early 20th century, but we don't allow gunpowder, which has existed in Europe since the 13th century. This is Achaea, not historical Europe. 

    Ultimately, the only thing that matters is whether we think it belongs in Achaea or not, and there are just a huge number of factors that don't lend themselves well to quantification, exactly like determining what constitutes 'obscenity.' The other issue is that you guys get particularly upset when something is approved and then not approved later (much more so than when something is denied and then permitted later), so it makes a lot of sense for the volunteer admins manning this system to tend to default to 'no' on new things.
    KezShirszae
  • KezKez Posts: 646 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    People always get upset about things they don't understand. Looking for some logic to follow helps us to be better at submitting things that will be liked.
  • TreyTrey Posts: 4,287 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Sarapis said:
    You guys need to get over it. 

    1. If the US Supreme Court, whose entire professional job is doing this, can't come up with a definitive list of what constitutes 'obscene', instead basically boiling down to "we know it when we see it" I'm not sure why you expect the volunteers that manage crafting to do any better. It's the same problem, fundamentally. Setting down guidelines to the individual word/term in any kind of comprehensive way isn't time efficient and just encourages people to find stupid ways around them.

    2. I'm not sure why there's any impression that just because a food exists in real life during year <x> it should exist in Achaea. As the help file says, foods that we don't feel fit will be rejected. It's pretty irrelevant when it was created irl. We allow bras, for instance, which didn't look like most of the ones in Achaea look until the early 20th century, but we don't allow gunpowder, which has existed in Europe since the 13th century. This is Achaea, not historical Europe. 

    Ultimately, the only thing that matters is whether we think it belongs in Achaea or not, and there are just a huge number of factors that don't lend themselves well to quantification, exactly like determining what constitutes 'obscenity.' The other issue is that you guys get particularly upset when something is approved and then not approved later (much more so than when something is denied and then permitted later), so it makes a lot of sense for the volunteer admins manning this system to tend to default to 'no' on new things.
    This is because mozzarella isn't paleo, isn't it?

    KyrraSkyeTrilliana
  • TrevizeTrevize Posts: 1,517 @ - Epic Achaean
    Kez said:
    But I did have a design rejected for being unsuitable, so I issued to ask in what way it was unsuitable so I could fix it and they replied because it's unsuitable. THAT was frustrating.
    Quick note. Write your question/etc on a letter and hand it to Amarisse (sp?). Don't issue. You'll get a reply that way, and usually a much better/more informative one.
    Current scripts: GoldTracker 1.2, mData 1.1
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  • TrevizeTrevize Posts: 1,517 @ - Epic Achaean
    Sarapis said:
    Ultimately, the only thing that matters is whether we think it belongs in Achaea or not, and there are just a huge number of factors that don't lend themselves well to quantification, exactly like determining what constitutes 'obscenity.'
    Correct me if I'm wrong here, but the impression I've always gotten with regards to crafting is that appearances matter more than technical details such as time period or availability.

    E.g. by and large, pizzas in an Achaean setting would be 'jarring' as they're associated with modern life despite actually being an old invention. Yet your example, in contrast, people don't often picture bras as 'modern' even though they are, so they don't feel 'jarring' to most people in an Achaean setting.
    Current scripts: GoldTracker 1.2, mData 1.1
    Site: https://github.com/trevize-achaea/scripts/releases
    Thread: http://forums.achaea.com/discussion/4064/trevizes-scripts
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  • TessaTessa Posts: 66 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited January 2016
    @Halos Sorry to butt in, but Clockwork exists within the game as well. Yet is disallowed. I personally (and no offense to anyone) think it sways with the current staff more than what's consistent to the things already in-game. There's no written guide, as @Sarapis pointed out. So it boils down to opinions. A shakey ground usually found in politics that always leads to agitation on one or many fronts. I.E. They're never going to please everyone, and things both can and likely will change on a whim. At least when it comes to finer details.

    That said, I do understand the agitation that has to come from both sides. One pushed into more difficult work, and the other confused as to why things have become more difficult. Communication is key. I, personally, have felt there were good communications between myself and the team. Mind you, I haven't had that many submissions. So don't think I'm calling anyone liar. Nobody's perfect, and all systems have their flaws/weak links/people who don't perform quite as they should. It's the AC team's job to keep professional and communicable. It's our job to keep perspective. All I'm saying.
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