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Family Names/RP - continued from derailment in Dais thread

AodfionnAodfionn Seattle, WAMember Posts: 1,200 @@ - Legendary Achaean
So we don't clutter up a perfectly good thread with more arguments over RP, let's discuss it here instead.

What are your thoughts on family RP? Should families be able to seek retribution and/or a namechange for those who have departed from their ranks? Should long-established familial lore be shown deference, or should the RP of the family name remain more fluid?

Discuss, bicker, et cetera. 
Aurora says, "Are you drunk, Aodfionn?" 

(The Targossian Academy): Halos says, "Go on! I need to feel the wind in my hair!"


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Comments

  • KondarKondar Member Posts: 63 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished

    So, I'm an Aristata in Eleusis, solely because of the Bloodlining of my mother and father. I don't share the same ideals as most Aristata, but that does not mean I don't want to bring honour to my family name. On that same end, forcing a change in mechanics, or harassing other players because they share a name with you, but not your ideals doesn't make sense to me. As years progress, people will change. People defect from their original cities, and carve new paths in their lives. They may not always think the same thing they did 10 years ago, it doesn't mean they stop being a member of that family. Too many people look at family as more of an organization, instead of what it should be...a family. You may have a "Black Sheep" in your family...you could have a son, and that son could grow up despising everything you believe in...that doesn't make him not your soon, nor should it force him to remove the name he was given from birth. In the sense of RP, it makes sense to "not like" someone that carries your name. It was made clear to me in game that I am not, nor will I ever truly be Aristata. You can dislike it, you can even publicly denounce my as part of your family, that won't change the fact that through the act of bloodlining, I am Aristate.

    Whoever appeals to the law against his fellow man is either a fool Or a coward
    Whoever cannot take care of himself without that law is both
    For a wounded man will shall say to his assailant
    "If I live, I will kill you. If I die, you are forgiven"
    Such is the rule of honor
    SarapisShirszaeAereidhnaShimi
  • MishgulMishgul Sør-TrøndelagMember Posts: 5,305 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    in the concept of Achaea, clans are organisations, which by extension, makes families organisations. Sharing a surname with someone makes you about as much as part of a family as having "X is my dad." as your motto. If you want to be an Aristata there is nothing wrong with that, but you are Aristata by choice. 

    -

    One of the symptoms of an approaching nervous breakdown is the belief that one's work is terribly important

    As drawn by Shayde
    hic locus est ubi mors gaudet succurrere vitae
    SaevaTrillianaMelodieBorivoj
  • AodfionnAodfionn Seattle, WAMember Posts: 1,200 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Upon a bit more thought on this, I'm not a fan of making a hard-coded mechanic to be able to undo or remove surnames. That said, I'm personally of a mind that we benefit more from showing deference and respect to certain player-established lore than we do from ignoring it. It's sort of like wishing that we had zero PK rules while also wishing that everyone was mature enough to handle that kind of environment.

    On an OOC level, I sincerely and deeply appreciate the fact that none of those who left the Wintermournes tried to carry it on elsewhere. We work hard to create an engaging, unique kind of environment with how we act as a whole, and so I can totally feel for the frustration that Saeva and others have in seeing names with a lot of lore relating to being literally imbued with the essence of Sartan going around elsewhere. To the folks in that family, it feels like it's cheapening the hard work put in by the people who founded/stuck around.  At the same time, it totally does open up avenues for interesting stuff to try and 'redeem' that name in a foreign land. I've never seen anyone really do much interesting with that, but there's a lot that goes on that I don't see. 

    On an IC level, my job is to bring redemption to any who seek it, with the belief that anyone can be saved and cleansed. I hold nothing against Morthif and others who stick to those names, but I still find it kind of weird OOCly.
    Aurora says, "Are you drunk, Aodfionn?" 

    (The Targossian Academy): Halos says, "Go on! I need to feel the wind in my hair!"


    Jhaeli
  • KondarKondar Member Posts: 63 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Aodfionn said:


    On an OOC level, I sincerely and deeply appreciate the fact that none of those who left the Wintermournes tried to carry it on elsewhere. We work hard to create an engaging, unique kind of environment with how we act as a whole, and so I can totally feel for the frustration that Saeva and others have in seeing names with a lot of lore relating to being literally imbued with the essence of Sartan going around elsewhere. To the folks in that family, it feels like it's cheapening the hard work put in by the people who founded/stuck around.  At the same time, it totally does open up avenues for interesting stuff to try and 'redeem' that name in a foreign land. I've never seen anyone really do much interesting with that, but there's a lot that goes on that I don't see. 


    That's a great way to look at it, but Lore is meant to evolve. Just because I don't share the same ideals as Mhaldor, does not mean I don't deserve the name Aristata. Families are meant to grow, and strengthen. Just because I spend my time dedicated to the protection of Nature, does not mean I don't add value to the name, I just don't add value to their ideals.

    As for clans, I understand the design of a clan is organizational, but I always hoped that Family clans would be treated differently. Families should -not- be an organization. Of course that's just my belief.

    Whoever appeals to the law against his fellow man is either a fool Or a coward
    Whoever cannot take care of himself without that law is both
    For a wounded man will shall say to his assailant
    "If I live, I will kill you. If I die, you are forgiven"
    Such is the rule of honor
    AodfionnShirszaeMycen
  • SaevaSaeva Member Posts: 1,818 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I have nothing more to say. The point was made 10 times over in the other thread by numerous people.


  • AegothAegoth Member Posts: 2,077 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Kondar said:

    Just because I don't share the same ideals as Mhaldor, does not mean I don't deserve the name Aristata. 
    Except it does mean you don't deserve it, because you don't embody what it means to be an Aristata. That's the whole point!
    SaevaJhaeli
  • KlendathuKlendathu Eye of the StormMember Posts: 2,454 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Aegoth said:
    Kondar said:

    Just because I don't share the same ideals as Mhaldor, does not mean I don't deserve the name Aristata. 
    Except it does mean you don't deserve it, because you don't embody what it means to be an Aristata. That's the whole point!
    It doesn't mean to him what it means to you.

    Tharos, the Announcer of Delos shouts, "It's near the end of the egghunt and I still haven't figured out how to pronounce Clean-dat-hoo."

    AnedhelSeftin
  • KondarKondar Member Posts: 63 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Looking at it from an OOC perspective...my family raised me to be religious, all of my family is religious. As I grew up, I realized that wasn't my thing, I didn't care for religion..so I stopped going to church. Does that mean...because I don't embody the beliefs of my parents, that I am no longer religious that I don't deserve my last name? I get the fantasy world of Achaea, and Real Life really aren't the same, but the principles behind it stand. The Aristata family may have become a family due to the similar beliefs of some people a long time ago...but people evolve, situations change. Not everyone can be forced into the same ideal for the sake of a Surename.
    Whoever appeals to the law against his fellow man is either a fool Or a coward
    Whoever cannot take care of himself without that law is both
    For a wounded man will shall say to his assailant
    "If I live, I will kill you. If I die, you are forgiven"
    Such is the rule of honor
  • DeladanDeladan Member Posts: 647 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    I hate you all equally. 

    AodfionnMycenSeftin
  • KondarKondar Member Posts: 63 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Deladan said:
    I hate you all equally. 

    Hate you too @Deladan
    Whoever appeals to the law against his fellow man is either a fool Or a coward
    Whoever cannot take care of himself without that law is both
    For a wounded man will shall say to his assailant
    "If I live, I will kill you. If I die, you are forgiven"
    Such is the rule of honor
    Mycen
  • SaevaSaeva Member Posts: 1,818 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    It's not about blood relations. How many times does it need to be said?


  • AnedhelAnedhel Member Posts: 2,367 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Player retention in any organisation (even as flimsy an organisation as a family) is up to the pre-established group to encourage and foster. I still say that, if people don't want to play a surname the way you want them to, you're probably just not making it interesting enough for them. Not to mention, family names don't really matter, for most people they're just an accident of 'who happened to bloodline you?' Getting angry over this really seems like little more than an easy way to find something to make a mountain out of a molehill with.
  • TahquilTahquil Member Posts: 3,646 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I'm not sure with the story of Deladan and... whoever the others were. But I think in Del's case he didn't betray the org. He wore the name before the cult sprung up and claimed it as their own.
    Jeslyn
  • KryptonKrypton shi-KhurenaMember Posts: 1,971 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Seeing all these Mhaldorian surnames leave Mhaldor just reminds me of Andromeda Tonks and Sirius Black, and how they and their bespectacled kid friend triumphed over ultimate Evil.
    (Mhaldor): Herenicus says, "Apologies, I am in-and-out of hold with Verizon wireless customer service."
    Aereidhna
  • DeladanDeladan Member Posts: 647 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    I suppose I should finally speak on this subject. I've been wearing the title Aristata on and off for years, in and outside of Mhaldor. So this isn't really anything recent. Been doing this 10+ years now.  

    The Mhaldorians keep claiming that it's strictly Mhaldorian. 

    One of the founding Members: 

    Prophesy Aristata (female Chaos Lady resembling a Tsol'aa).
    She is 433 years old, having been born on the 4th of Lupar, 262 years after the 
    fall of the Seleucarian Empire.
    She is unranked in Achaea.
    She is an extremely credible character.
    She is not known for acts of infamy.
    She is a Consul in Ashtan.
    She is considered to be approximately 50% of your might.
    She is a mentor and able to take on proteges.
    Her warcry: 'Let's go into the dark together!'

    A member of the Aristata council 

    Doctor Tekla Rousseau, Aspirant of Galadriel (female Siren).
    She is 392 years old, having been born on the 17th of Scarlatan, 303 years after 
    the fall of the Seleucarian Empire.
    She is unranked in Achaea.
    She is an extremely credible character.
    She is not known for acts of infamy.
    She is a Freewoman in Eleusis.
    She is considered to be approximately 95% of your might.
    She is a mentor and able to take on proteges.
    Her motto: 'Life doesn't have to be miserable just because you are.'
    She has taken the hand of Das in marriage.
    She has been divorced once.
    She bears the arms: Azure, a rose Argent.
    See HONOURS DEEDS TEKLA to view her 8 special honours.

    then I'm noticing a couple Hashani in there too. and that's just from Clhelp Aristata. 

    So while you continue to single out people for not being Mhaldorian, you probably were hoping that people wouldn't point these small things out too. Well I did. Not sorry. 

    KondarJeslynTahquilAereidhna
  • KietKiet Member Posts: 1,875 @ - Epic Achaean
    Mishgul said:
    I do not let my own kids wear my surname. If you want to be a Nithilar you have to do an act of great Evil and show ambition and drive for following the Truths and then it is awarded to you. I believe the other Mhaldorian families do a similar thing. Being bloodlined determined your family but not your surname.

    Believing that having the right to a surname because your biological parents have it is such a western european/north american concept. I don't have the same surname as my mother. My dad does not have a surname (which always makes signing legal documents awkward).

    If you want to bring that concept into Achaea, sure, but it is still your choice to wear your surname.

    In many cultures in the real world, names were dynamic titles that were given to you. A symbol of recognition for who you are and your name could change many times in your life. It is frustrating to see that kind of tradition mocked, in much the same way you feel it is bad that you feel that you should have a static name based on who your parents are, which is a very western way of thinking. 

    We don't have birth certificates in Achaea though. The only real right you have to recognition from yourself is your first name. If you get flak for your title or any surname, it is all down to you to handle it. 

    The flip side of this has been when you grant your title to someone you liked for 30 seconds, and they go and ruin your x amount of time working on making something cool. You can't really play the game for someone else so you are left with the decision of changing how you play the game or living with the consequences.

    You can always hope that player 1 or player 2 shows some empathy in these situations but this is the internet and no one posting in these threads (including myself) has shown any indication of caring what all sides of the argument would/should feel about these things or that they care to respect how other the other player plays the game. 

    The in game interaction is going to be hostile, and I love drama, so I am fine with it. I play achaea like it is a book with living breathing world, (to the best of my ability), and these kind of situations are infriguing to let them play out. Fight it out in game. Insult each other in game as characters, not players. Argue with each as characters, not players. See what kind of story can develop. 

    All this OOC justification and arguing takes away from the exciting IG solutions you could be trying to implement.
    This is a really good post and a lot more insightful than "well in cheap fantasy novel series A it was like this." Ultimately a lot of these issues come from people having very different understandings of what a surname is, but I agree just handling it in-game, violently if necessary is the best way to do it.

    There have always been people who have faked titles/surnames even in RL, there's just opportunity in Achaea to handle it in more interesting ways.
    MishgulJhaeliAereidhna
  • DeladanDeladan Member Posts: 647 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    edited October 2015
    The leadership positions are:
    The Aristata Council
    Diego, Lideron, Malkuth, Aiseiri, Prophesy, Zaldimar,
    Gaillardia, Tekla, Ladydeath, Saibel, Istiria, Ravai, Milenka,
    Diamondesce, Caitiff, and Saeva

  • MelodieMelodie MhaldorMember Posts: 4,495 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited October 2015
    @Deladan, I won't speak for the Aristatas on the actual people they keep (you'll notice I've kept my comments general), but the people you're pointing out are dormant. You can't force title changes on dormant people. You, Morthif and others are active players, and thus of course are going to feel the (understandable) pressure. Added to that, I imagine they've contributed in ways to retain those positions for a particular reason. 
    "You have had an extraordinary adventure, my dear. Extraordinary! One that few people could ever imagine. Treasure it. Keep it safe and secure, tucked away in some special place in your heart. 

    But... don't spend the rest of your days chasing a ghost."
    Sherazad
  • DeladanDeladan Member Posts: 647 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    In my above post. You'll notice I'm using name highlighting, the white names don't belong to any city. Diego is one of the founders. Prophesy as I mentioned earlier is Ashtani, another founder. Diamondesce doesn't have a city, the last one I remember her being in was Shallam, And then Tekla, the Eleusian on the council. 

    Out of the founding members of the Aristata 2 out of 5 aren't even Mhaldorian. Then 4 members of the council aren't Mhaldorian. 

    Yet, all we've heard from the Mhaldorians is "It's a Mhaldorian Family." The Clhelp states otherwise.

  • DeladanDeladan Member Posts: 647 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    edited October 2015
    @Melodie ; Oh but you can kick them out of the clan.

  • DeladanDeladan Member Posts: 647 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Melodie said:
    @Deladan, I won't speak for the Aristatas on the actual people they keep (you'll notice I've kept my comments general), but the people you're pointing out are dormant. You can't force title changes on dormant people. You, Morthif and others are active players, and thus of course are going to feel the (understandable) pressure. Added to that, I imagine they've contributed in ways to retain those positions for a particular reason. 
    It's been stated several times that once you're no longer mhaldorian you're no longer Aristata... using words of others. So that being stated, the others shouldn't even be in the clan at all, since they're no longer Aristata, even if they did found it. 

    You can sit here and cry we want recognizition and we want to be strictly "Evil" all you want, but until matters are taken internally, then that's all you're doing is crying out for recognizition instead of trying to actively build an evil family. 

    Kondar
  • MishgulMishgul Sør-TrøndelagMember Posts: 5,305 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    @Deladan, I think your argument is a bit unfair to Prophesy and you should probably stop picking on her, especially since she can't defend herself as a player.

    -

    One of the symptoms of an approaching nervous breakdown is the belief that one's work is terribly important

    As drawn by Shayde
    hic locus est ubi mors gaudet succurrere vitae
  • DaeirDaeir AustraliaMember, Secret Squirrel Posts: 6,072 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    There sort of isn't any recourse for the family to deal with the person wearing the surname though. Not anything meaningful, anyway.

    Pretty much devolves down to "stop wearing the surname you're not entitled to it" followed by "no". You could do some trite bollocks involving "exerting the family's power" or whatever and making their life mildly miserable or deluging them in largely empty threats, but at the end of the day, unless you can convince someone in their org to strip them of the title, there's literally nothing meaningful you can do. The ball is entirely in the other player's court.

    That is what makes this whole paradigm a bit shit, really. You set these rules and boundaries that define a family, its ethos and what it attempts to achieve in the world, and some person with a chip on their shoulder can bumble about wearing the signet of a legacy you worked for and strived to build without any recourse for you to retaliate meaningfully. Though, this can go the other way and the person departing can make an actual opportunity of their newfound freedom and start a splinter sect of the family elsewhere under new values, but I have literally never seen that happen. There's clearly not a propensity for players to act in constructive ways when leaving an organisation is involved.

    I would honestly support some extension to the clans system that allows you to classify them as a fully fledged family organisation, with a set of requirements vaguely similar to how High Clans are currently selected. A minimum active player count, a clear history and established goal + ethos and charter are the bare minimum. Once established this way, families are recongized "legal" entities within Achaea and the act of representing the entity without authorization is considered as sufficient grounds for retaliation in other domains. This could expand to stuff like copying seals, stealing letters, etc. Family heads could be given a one-time option to "disown" a person, which in turn would give notification to anyone attempting to prefix/suffix them with the family surname in whatever they've chosen. If the titler proceeds with this, the family is notified via logs and has a person they can hold accountable for the admonishment of their name.

    Not going to happen, but would be kind've cool if it did, at least in my eyes.
    :pleased::pleased:
    ShimiElowinTibitha
  • KietKiet Member Posts: 1,875 @ - Epic Achaean
    I mean, nothing stops someone from naming themselves Sir or house/city titles, either. There's very few things you can force people to do in Achaea beyond making their life harder.
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