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Make Bashing/Hunting less boring

I like Achaea, and I love the roleplaying, politics, and very unique and VERY deep combat system.

But despite that, bashing/hunting remains very, very boring.  Yes, bashing is supposed to be work, with the goal being dragon and, well, not having to bash as much any more.  But, in my opinion, any goal is supposed to be about the journey, not the destination.  If you don't enjoy the journey, then what is the point?

I get it, too.  The main fun thing about Bashing is that areas that are frequently hunted out give less experience, whereas the less commonly traversed areas can give more as denizens give more experience the longer they stay alive.  That encourages people to adventure and find uncommon areas for themselves, and it also encourages people to communicate and roleplay with their house or faction in order to more be informed about less travelled areas if that is their cup of tea.  These are really good ideas that naturally happen.  This isn't a criticism about finding which areas to hunt; simply, what happens when you get there.

Combat for most, if not all classes, simply consists of using the same ability over and over until the target is dead.  As you advance in level, you get slightly more health and mana, and as you advance in your pertinent skill tree, your one ability increases in damage.  While you grow, you learn a plethora of abilities and a lot of different ways of attack, ways to defend against other people's attacks, and ways to support your group in the giant chess game that is Achaea combat... against adventurers.

Against Denizens, you will rarely learn more than that one ability that you use over and over.  Combat against denizens is slightly less complicated than combat in Dragon Warrior 1.

Granted, a fair counter argument is that bashing is supposed to be boring to encourage people to avoid it and participate in other aspects of the game.  Maybe bashing is supposed to be not a destination or a journey, but something you do in the off time, between enjoying the intangible aspects of Achaea... and those do exist, I completely understand.  But I have two counters to this:

A.  Player vs. Player combat is a very important core of Achaea, in both the coded game and the intangibles in the culture. Whether it be raiding other towns, resolving political differences, hunting down betrayers and/or murderers... Conflict is a part of any story, and much of that conflict is resolved through combat.  In order to be/stay competitive in said conflict, you HAVE to bash, not even maybe.  Modern games have taught us that your journey in end-game doesn't start until you are max level, and there isn't that much of an exception in Achaea, at least not until level 50-80ish, depending on class.

B.  There are better ways of handling this using game mechanics.  Something could be done that's been done before in games, but to a more extreme.  Make it so that someone gets one Achaean day of bashing that grants 10x experience per Achaean month.  You can start it by using a command like TRAINING START, and it lasts through the day, and informs you when it finishes.

But that wouldn't address the problem of bashing itself being boring, it just makes it so you have to do less of it.  I suggest two things:

1.  Somehow think about and improve the grouping system so that you get exponentially more experience in a group, so that there is almost no reason not to be in a group.  I know that the experience increases in a group currently, but I don't think it's enough.  If it were, people would be forming hunting groups a lot more regularly.

2.  Create a denizen combat system so that there is much more involved than using the same ability over and over.  WoW does this by adding rotations, and little things here and there like abilities that generate counters, allowing to use a 'finisher' ability that uses said counters.  I fully know that this isn't WoW, but these are all things that are done to make fighting mobs much less tedious.

3.  Add more opposing factions and quests.  Minia has been revamped and has a lot of quests now, but the rest of the world is disappointingly unchanged, for the most part.  There are the dwarves and orcs, but those are overhunted for the most part for that very reason.

In conclusion, I believe Achaea is a lot more than it's denizen combat system.  But I also feel that a lot of people might get bored of the combat system and leave before they discover the greater parts of the game.  Improving the combat system, even if it's done in a manner that is cheesy and weird, is better than what it has now.

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Comments

  • AtalkezAtalkez Member Posts: 3,559 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    They're already working on a system that makes bashing more fun/require improvisation moreso than hitting your one alias a million times.

    We've seen some small glimpses of the changes during recent events. From what I've seen personally the mechanics seem alot more intensive.


    You hug Aurora compassionately.
    Trilliana
  • KlendathuKlendathu Eye of the StormMember Posts: 2,258 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    It's also worth remembering that there are those who don't find it a drudge, or have found ways to mitigate the less exciting aspects.

    Tharos, the Announcer of Delos shouts, "It's near the end of the egghunt and I still haven't figured out how to pronounce Clean-dat-hoo."

    Trilliana
  • PrythePrythe Member Posts: 351 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    I used to Maul Maul Maul
    Now I 
    Gut Gut Gut

    I like it.


    - To love another person is to see the face of G/d
    - Let me get my hat and my knife
    - It's your apple, take a bite
    - Don't dream it ... be it


    KakotasSarathai
  • AustereAustere TennesseeMember Posts: 1,903 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited May 2015
    Klendathu said:
    It's also worth remembering that there are those who don't find it a drudge, or have found ways to mitigate the less exciting aspects.
    Grinding is grinding.  If you make it more difficult just so you can call it complex, it's just going to be  more frustrating.  Regardless of what they do,  there will still be patterns. If you make denizens require finishers to kill, it just means I need two aliases instead of one.  Once you know the trick, you are back to mindlessly executing your kill combo. Sure it might be shiny and neat at first, but new wears off.  

     The only changes denizen combat needs is more reasons to team up (Ugrach mechanics but with less ridiculous one shot damage), along with rewards for teaming up that are not diminished versions of solo hunting. Experience being split and multiplied better, along with automatic gold splitting and gathering for group kills would be nice.  The only way you are going to convince me to team up for bashing when I need gold or experience is to increases returns for both, while grouped. As it is,  I can make more gold and experience solo than in a team. This fosters seclusion.  Only hunted with one person frequently that I personally felt could keep up with my speed, and we both still made less than we could solo. Shouldn't be the case. 

    edit: fo clarification,  I was agreeing with @Klendathu . Didn't want to quote OP.
  • TherisTheris Member Posts: 76 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Kaadiart said:
    I get it, too.  The main fun thing about Bashing is that areas that are frequently hunted out give less experience, whereas the less commonly traversed areas can give more as denizens give more experience the longer they stay alive.  That encourages people to adventure and find uncommon areas for themselves, and it also encourages people to communicate and roleplay with their house or faction in order to more be informed about less travelled areas if that is their cup of tea.  These are really good ideas that naturally happen.  This isn't a criticism about finding which areas to hunt; simply, what happens when you get there.

    Wait, is this actually a thing?!?

    Also, are we allowed to hear about what kinds of changes are going in?
  • JulesJules Member Posts: 2,169 @ - Epic Achaean
    edited May 2015
    Austere said:

    Grinding is grinding.  If you make it more difficult just so you can call it complex, it's just going to be  more frustrating.  Regardless of what they do,  there will still be patterns. If you make denizens require finishers to kill, it just means I need two aliases instead of one.  Once you know the trick, you are back to mindlessly executing your kill combo. Sure it might be shiny and neat at first, but new wears off.  

     The only changes denizen combat needs is more reasons to team up (Ugrach mechanics but with less ridiculous one shot damage), along with rewards for teaming up that are not diminished versions of solo hunting. Experience being split and multiplied better, along with automatic gold splitting and gathering for group kills would be nice.  The only way you are going to convince me to team up for bashing when I need gold or experience is to increases returns for both, while grouped. As it is,  I can make more gold and experience solo than in a team. This fosters seclusion.  Only hunted with one person frequently that I personally felt could keep up with my speed, and we both still made less than we could solo. Shouldn't be the case. 

    edit: fo clarification,  I was agreeing with @Klendathu . Didn't want to quote OP.
    I'm interested to try what they come up with, but this has been my concern as well - that the changes could accidentially make things worse, in pretty much the way you describe.  Reasons to team up are great.  Would love that.  

    As for OP, if you want access to PVP without grinding your butt off, you need to give Imperian a try.  If a certain kind of "roleplay and politics" is what matters most, Achaea is your game (possibly Aetolia or Lusternia as well depending on what you're looking for).  If you want to PVP and think you can hold your own against the likes of Santar and Jhui (and by hold your own, I guess I mean not get beat up too badly/often), Achaea is also your game.  The various IRE games seem to address the needs and wants of different kinds of players, so it's worth trying them out to see if one might be a best fit.  I've only tried Lusternia briefly, and they have maybe the coolest toys, but conflict there seems to be fairly dead at the moment (by the players' own admission) and Aetolia is the only one I haven't tried.  

    EDIT:  I guess there is also Midkemia... 
  • AustereAustere TennesseeMember Posts: 1,903 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Don't give up on Achaea just because you don't like the hunting.  It's such a miniscule part in the grand scheme.  You could hunt to level 80 in a week, and level 80 is plenty for entry level fighting.  
    Within the past six months or so,  Achaea hired someone whose job is to improve and balance hunting.  Seeing as how the only thing we have saw thus far (too my knowledge) was a change in all of our damage,  I am sure they have more planned.  Drawing a blank on dudes name, so I can't tag for more insight.  Sorry. 
  • KaadiartKaadiart Member Posts: 4
    Austere said:
    Klendathu said:
    It's also worth remembering that there are those who don't find it a drudge, or have found ways to mitigate the less exciting aspects.
    Grinding is grinding.  If you make it more difficult just so you can call it complex, it's just going to be  more frustrating.  Regardless of what they do,  there will still be patterns. If you make denizens require finishers to kill, it just means I need two aliases instead of one.  Once you know the trick, you are back to mindlessly executing your kill combo. Sure it might be shiny and neat at first, but new wears off.  

    As a game designer myself, I can say that you can be proven objectively wrong on this by simply looking at the history of video games and RPGs in general, much less modern MMORPGs.  What I'm proposing is quite a bit more than what you are suggesting, so bear with me here.

    Simply put, take a look at some games where even characters who specialize in damage have an optimal rotation, but still have to figure out how to deal the most damage in the least time, especially when faced with nuances like taking damage yourself, multiple enemies, or single enemies that need to be killed quickly but don't have as much hitpoints.

    This kind of thing actually requires thought.  Do I use damage-over-time spells, or will my target be dead well before the spell runs its course?  Are my multi-target attacks the most efficient way to fight 3 enemies?  How about two?  How about two big enemies and one little enemy?  Do I use my multi-target attack until the little enemy is dead, and then switch to single target?

    What about the 'finisher' I built up?  Do I use it on the mob I'm fighting, or save it on the baddie in the next room?

    There is so much you can do with a complex combat system.  You actually have to think about what you are doing and what the most efficient way to clear an area is, not just mindlessly hitting "smite" or "gut" or "warp" every 3-4 seconds.  I'm not saying make it needlessly complex, using 3 aliases instead of 1, but having a plethora of abilities that each have their moments which they are ideal, but the game is full of 'unideal' circumstances where the player has to resolve what's best.

    And don't worry, I'm not going to give up on Achaea because I don't like the hunting.  I just think the journey to level 80 can be just as fun as the roleplay.  :)  It will (and has) taken me longer than a week because I have a job/life/family balance.  But I'll get there.
  • DrodakDrodak Member Posts: 84 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    The biggest problem I'd have with making the pve too complex is what would be the point if there is no reward. We don't have item slots like head, neck, wrist, finger, etc etc, materia magica|aardwolf style to put on rare loot drops that come from pve. That alone would probably require redoing the whole style of the game because of the pvp mechanics. Skills don't even get improved through bashing directly, not talking about bashing gold to buy credits. Mobs serve as quest components and that is nice, some also give an honours line as far as I know when killed. Dragon is the grand prize which comes with some cool stuff. I don't like grinding for the point of it, no matter how complex they make it I will code around it so I can kinda watch tv while doing it.
  • SarathaiSarathai Member Posts: 2,139 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Drodak said:
    Mobs serve as quest components and that is nice, some also give an honours line as far as I know when killed.
    In terms of quests it can be a bit problematic for some areas. For example, I honestly have no idea if there are any quests in Tir Murann (besides "kill Vertani for Angela"), because I'm too busy decimating the population every time I go there. And given the rewards (gold, talisman pieces, etc.), I doubt that I'd care enough to stop and do the quest. I doubt many other dragons would, either.
    - (Eleusis): Ellodin says, "The Fissure of Echoes is Sarathai's happy place."
    - With sharp, crackling tones, Kyrra tells you, "The ladies must love you immensely."
    - (Eleusian Ranger Techs): Savira says, "Most of the hard stuff seem to have this built in code like: If adventurer_hitting_me = "Sarathai" then send("terminate and selfdestruct")."
    - Makarios says, "Serve well and perish."
    - Xaden says, "Xaden confirmed scrub 2017."



    Prythe
  • KayeilKayeil Washington StateMember Posts: 2,599 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    As some have said previously, hunting is going to be changed bit by bit in the future. We don't know exactly what's in store, though. Also, that some of us already enjoy hunting as it is (me being one of them). I do believe the admins have stated this game will never fully focus on hunting, though. Combat will most often win out on what will take the priority of their time when making changes and improvements.
    What doesn't kill you gives you exp.

    Prythe
  • AyamiAyami Member Posts: 79 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited May 2015
    Kaadiart said:
    Austere said:
    Klendathu said:
    It's also worth remembering that there are those who don't find it a drudge, or have found ways to mitigate the less exciting aspects.
    Grinding is grinding.  If you make it more difficult just so you can call it complex, it's just going to be  more frustrating.  Regardless of what they do,  there will still be patterns. If you make denizens require finishers to kill, it just means I need two aliases instead of one.  Once you know the trick, you are back to mindlessly executing your kill combo. Sure it might be shiny and neat at first, but new wears off.  

    As a game designer myself, I can say that you can be proven objectively wrong on this by simply looking at the history of video games and RPGs in general, much less modern MMORPGs.  What I'm proposing is quite a bit more than what you are suggesting, so bear with me here.

    Simply put, take a look at some games where even characters who specialize in damage have an optimal rotation, but still have to figure out how to deal the most damage in the least time, especially when faced with nuances like taking damage yourself, multiple enemies, or single enemies that need to be killed quickly but don't have as much hitpoints.

    This kind of thing actually requires thought.  Do I use damage-over-time spells, or will my target be dead well before the spell runs its course?  Are my multi-target attacks the most efficient way to fight 3 enemies?  How about two?  How about two big enemies and one little enemy?  Do I use my multi-target attack until the little enemy is dead, and then switch to single target?

    What about the 'finisher' I built up?  Do I use it on the mob I'm fighting, or save it on the baddie in the next room?

    There is so much you can do with a complex combat system.  You actually have to think about what you are doing and what the most efficient way to clear an area is, not just mindlessly hitting "smite" or "gut" or "warp" every 3-4 seconds.  I'm not saying make it needlessly complex, using 3 aliases instead of 1, but having a plethora of abilities that each have their moments which they are ideal, but the game is full of 'unideal' circumstances where the player has to resolve what's best.

    And don't worry, I'm not going to give up on Achaea because I don't like the hunting.  I just think the journey to level 80 can be just as fun as the roleplay.  :)  It will (and has) taken me longer than a week because I have a job/life/family balance.  But I'll get there.
    The issue is no mmorpg that has challenging rotations/etc. actually has solo content that's particularly interesting. The complexity of classes in mmorpg's is almost entirely confined to their group content. Even the mmorpg's that try to spice up combat can't actually make grinding any less boring once the novelty wears off unless they go into completely different genres that obviously wouldn't fit into a text game. The ones that come closest to making grinding less boring also rely heavily on dodging/aiming and I'm not sure how you'd that into text.
  • JarrodJarrod Member, Seafaring Liason Posts: 2,914
    Having grinded various things in SWTOR, RIFT, WoW, Tera, RO, RO2, GW2, D3, and that's just the Multiplayer RPGs, I can confidently say that Achaea falls pretty standard on the scale of 'interesting grinded content'. It beats most of those listed above, since different enemies (especially at higher end) do different relevant things, though obviously once you're used to them they're pretty mindlessly dealt with.

    As has been stated before, Achaea is not a PvE game, and the complexity of the PvP far outstrips all the games above. I think when people ask for 'more interesting' bashing, they think changes will make it a more exciting thing to do. It likely won't, it will simply mean that you have to pay more attention while grinding for the same rewards, which is fine, because that's what PvE in Achaea and grinding are.
    image
    Cascades of quicksilver light streak across the firmament as the celestial voice of Ourania intones, "Oh Jarrod..."

    Xith
  • TahquilTahquil Member Posts: 3,502 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    ... All those have graphics. They'd probably be boring if they didn't.
    Xith
  • AtalkezAtalkez Member Posts: 3,559 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Also want to reiterate that levels are subjective in regards to pvp success. I've yet to hit 80 and have over 1000 PKs.


    You hug Aurora compassionately.
    Austere
  • JarrodJarrod Member, Seafaring Liason Posts: 2,914
    Tahquil said:
    ... All those have graphics. They'd probably be boring if they didn't.
    Right, just pointing out that 'modern' MMOs/RPGs don't have some interesting and innovative way to grind.

    I much prefer Achaea's current method. If I'm going to be doing something mindlessly for a long time, I'd like it to be as simple as possible.
    image
    Cascades of quicksilver light streak across the firmament as the celestial voice of Ourania intones, "Oh Jarrod..."

    AustereJulesDrodakRazzlo
  • TaelTael Member Posts: 1,197 @ - Epic Achaean
    Sarapis said:
    DIKU-inspired games like WoW
    I think that is the first time I have ever seen someone make that connection before. Neat.
  • XithXith Member Posts: 2,588 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Since Achaea's got PvP in the bag, some PvE attention was probably overdue. But AFTER multiclass. Wink, wink.
    I like my steak like I like my Magic cards: mythic rare.
    NizanaKakotas
  • SarapisSarapis Member, Administrator Posts: 3,382 Achaean staff
    Tael said:
    Sarapis said:
    DIKU-inspired games like WoW
    I think that is the first time I have ever seen someone make that connection before. Neat.
    Standard in the games industry tbh, at least for those of us working in the MUD/MMO space and who were around in the late 90s/early 00s. Everquest was almost a direct graphical translation of a DIKU and was a heavy inspiration to the original WoW team. Most of the teams working on the original popular graphical MMOs (UO, EQ, AC, etc) had been heavy MUDers and many were admins on MUDs too. (Not that UO was derived from DIKU, to be clear.)
    Tael
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