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Monk Overhaul 4/24/2015

JacenJacen Posts: 2,245Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
Thought I would post a summary of the changes to monk and open up a place for discussion.

TEKURA changes

http://pastebin.com/hx73RGeQ
image
AereidhnaJhuiRekhyr

Comments

  • DortheronDortheron Posts: 343Member ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Biggest points I'd like to make about the Tekura changes:

    1.  Each stance has equal limb damage (which means that limb counters are simplified since stance doesn't change the damage values) and added bonuses (like horse gives the ability to leap, etc)
    2.  You can immediately switch stances after you combo a target. Given that stances now have different bonuses now, this means you can stay fluid in combat with strategies
    3. Roundhouse no longer gives paralysis, but instead breaks shields. This means that throwing axes probably going to come back for paralysis/punch/punch against dodging classes (I'm looking at you, Jester) but is a big offensive boost, since it keeps monk momentum up, similar to other classes (knights, sentinels, blademasters, etc).
    4. Kai combo has to be changed now. Probably going to be slam (if it still gives kai if unprone), jab/jab
    5. Wrench and Slam actually has a purpose now! I can already see that Horse and Wrench are going to be strong combos.

    I don't have time to right now, but I really want to check out how Scythe works in Telepathy now


    You know, that one thing at that one place, with that one person.

    Yea, that one!
  • JacenJacen Posts: 2,245Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    New link for pastebin that includes the Telepathy/Kaido changes (which are far less extensive and less detailed than the Tekura changes, with the exception of Scythe)

    http://pastebin.com/8Fa9z9H2

    I am curious about something, though. Base balance cost of most of the punches is listed as 4.00 seconds. Unstanced with nimble, I'm already at 2.8 seconds, and 2.25 seconds in Scorpion. Other stances untested thus far.  That's a hell of a jump. 
    image
  • DortheronDortheron Posts: 343Member ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    edited April 2015
    These changes have some huge dueling power behind them, and could possibly shot monk back to #1



    edit: formatting
    You know, that one thing at that one place, with that one person.

    Yea, that one!
  • DortheronDortheron Posts: 343Member ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    @Jacen for Scythe, is it just a single restoration break to kill with or double resto? Either way, this sets up a delightful situation where you can break head, leg, leg and either force them to cure head and go for bbt kill or force them to cure legs and go for the scythe kill
    You know, that one thing at that one place, with that one person.

    Yea, that one!
  • DortheronDortheron Posts: 343Member ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Oh, looked closer and you need a mangled head for scythe, so double resto.
    You know, that one thing at that one place, with that one person.

    Yea, that one!
  • IocunIocun Posts: 3,505Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Dortheron said:
    Roundhouse no longer gives paralysis, but instead breaks shields. This means that throwing axes probably going to come back for paralysis/punch/punch against dodging classes (I'm looking at you, Jester) but is a big offensive boost, since it keeps monk momentum up, similar to other classes (knights, sentinels, blademasters, etc).


    That one confuses me a bit. I thought rhk-paralysis was added in order to give monks a more class-appropriate alternative to paralysis handaxes. I understand why this has been changed again (and I agree with doing so), but wouldn't it make sense to also do something against handaxe combos, so we don't just end up with what we had before again?

    Higher tekura accuracy to reduce reliance on bypass mechanics is a good step in the right direction, but perhaps insufficient.
  • AinlyAinly Posts: 121Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    @iocun Can sweep faster now  
  • JovoloJovolo EnglandPosts: 3,120Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    It would help if Monks couldn't throw/punch/punch
  • DortheronDortheron Posts: 343Member ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Iocun said:
    Dortheron said:
    Roundhouse no longer gives paralysis, but instead breaks shields. This means that throwing axes probably going to come back for paralysis/punch/punch against dodging classes (I'm looking at you, Jester) but is a big offensive boost, since it keeps monk momentum up, similar to other classes (knights, sentinels, blademasters, etc).


    That one confuses me a bit. I thought rhk-paralysis was added in order to give monks a more class-appropriate alternative to paralysis handaxes. I understand why this has been changed again (and I agree with doing so), but wouldn't it make sense to also do something against handaxe combos, so we don't just end up with what we had before again?

    Higher tekura accuracy to reduce reliance on bypass mechanics is a good step in the right direction, but perhaps insufficient.
    Before rhk had paralysis, monks had three options to prone as a primary way to go around parry: swk, jpk, and pinch block.

    • Swk had horrible accuracy before.
    • Jpk was a confirmed prone, but you lost your stance. Which means either slow future offensive or losing momentum to restance
    • Pinch is pretty close to being RNG, as it depends on them being below a threshold and then attacking you (pretty nice with retaliation strike in twoarts!). 
    • Guarding did prone at one point, but got changed to be closer to parry. Happened a while before rhk changes

    Only reliable way to prone outside of paralysis being given by axes was jpk, and as mentioned before there were trade-offs. If swk hits every time (needs confirmation), then throwing axes are pointless and not needed as long as the foe isn't mounted. Mounted people have to be unmounted before they can be swk proned. Jpk (and now wrt and hgk) goes around that as it prones them and dismounts them as a consequence. Highkick (hgk) in eagle stance does the same now but only works on foes flying or in the trees. While preping and lacking the requirements to use wrt and hgk, jpk and axes goes back to being the only reliable way to get around parry vs mounted enemies in a post paralysis-rhk world (yes, I realize that banish in Kaido is suppose to be a work around for that, but for the solution to that is to bring a second mount...)

    What monks didn't have is a way around shields. You either used Hammer (which lead to either them running or shield/hammer wars until they healed up) or tried to keep them occupied with telepathy, which did nothing for preping.

    Jovolo said:
    It would help if Monks couldn't throw/punch/punch

    Pre-changes, they both required you to be prone to go through at any time. Now in order to throw/punch/punch you have to be in hrs. Slam still requires you to be prone, while Wrench requires head/torso/an arm to be broken before you can use it.

    hrs+wrt is actually pretty big as a wrt torso makes bbt take only 3 in a row and not 4, and wrt left/right arm lets you prone them. Breaking arms actually have implications for getting bbt/scythe kills now and has to be taken into consideration. Breaking torso not only means I do more bbt damage, but that I could wrt torso to set up for the breaks/bbtx3


    You know, that one thing at that one place, with that one person.

    Yea, that one!
    Rohai
  • TaelTael Posts: 1,197Member @ - Epic Achaean
    I wait until all the announced big class changes go in to switch class, finally make it happen, and then they go and make monk cool again.

    Goddamnit.

    TherisTezcatlipoca
  • JhuiJhui Posts: 1,954Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    throw/punch/punch is supposed to be gone, I believe
    image
    Jovolo
  • JacenJacen Posts: 2,245Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Jhui said:
    throw/punch/punch is supposed to be gone, I believe
    That's one of the advantages of Horse stance: Can punch after a WRT or SLT.
    image
  • JhuiJhui Posts: 1,954Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I meant weapon/bomb throws
    image
  • TherisTheris Posts: 76Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Tael said:
    I wait until all the announced big class changes go in to switch class, finally make it happen, and then they go and make monk cool again.

    Goddamnit.

    I WAS a monk when I came back several months ago. I might have toughed it out if I'd known...
    Cooper
  • PenwizePenwize Posts: 1,239Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    The AB file is still a little messed up, but JBP was also changed to address the parry bypass issue.

    JBP ARMS will numb arms for a second, allowing the second punch in a combo to bypass parry.  That makes parried limbs really slow to prep that way, but it's a built-in way to bypass for Tekura.

    JBP HEAD will undeaf, replacing WWK's undeafing.
  • HayteHayte Posts: 565Member @ - Epic Achaean
    prepping a limb one punch at a time? I'd rather have my bore punched.
  • LeviticusLeviticus Posts: 244Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Great changes, but my question is how does it hold up against the other classes who have fast instant kills, i.e BM, Occie , Bard, etc etc? How fast can you kill someone with and without tumble?
  • MizikMizik Posts: 2,027Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    55.6 seconds.
    image
  • KlendathuKlendathu Eye of the StormPosts: 2,580Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    JPK + punch + punch = combo, so can immediately re-stance. Intended?

    Tharos, the Announcer of Delos shouts, "It's near the end of the egghunt and I still haven't figured out how to pronounce Clean-dat-hoo."
  • DortheronDortheron Posts: 343Member ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Mizik said:
    55.6 seconds.

    Depends on how fast you can prep. I'm working on a strat that requires minimum of 2 prepped limbs, 3-4 if you want to play it safe
    You know, that one thing at that one place, with that one person.

    Yea, that one!
  • JovoloJovolo EnglandPosts: 3,120Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    The specificity implies sarcasm. 
    Mizik
  • JacinthaJacintha Posts: 2Member
    Hmm testing!
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