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Shaman Room Hindrance

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  • DochithaDochitha Posts: 1,069Member ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    Makarios said:
    My initial inclination would be for curseward to not be useable while prone. It was intended primarily as a momentum slower, not a finisher interrupter. We will give it some further thought.
    @Makarios I am all in for curseward not to be usable while prone.
  • AradorArador Posts: 1,693Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Dochitha said:
    Seriously, folks do not realize 2 afflictions every 2s is FAR better than one affliction every 1s, which makes a lot of difference, as one of the afflictions gets to stick 1s longer. IE curare/xentio, target cures curare, xentio is effective the entire 2s. While curse paralyse, curse clumsy, clumsy is there AFTER 1s, not from the beginning. And clumsy has an intended effect against physical classes. But this is not an issue, as this is Shaman's uniqueness.


    Not always true.  Single afflictions can force people to cure a certain way.

  • AmranuAmranu Posts: 714Member ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    I also agree with curseward not being used prone, though not only because it can be used to disrupt finishers like that, but also because those that can illusion while prone can make you play a guessing game with illusions as to whether or not they've cursewarded.
    Dochitha
  • TaelTael Posts: 1,197Member @ - Epic Achaean
    I guess to rephrase my question: why do shaman/apostate have this thing to slow their momentum when other momentum affliction classes don't? Why do they have the ability to bypass the normal finisher interrupter/slower (now that so many classes can remove it will maintaining most of their momentum), shield, and instead face a thing that lowers momentum? Is it just a way to balance them that makes them unique from other affliction classes or is there an actual difference in how they afflict that leads to a design where there is a different way to defend against them?

    I'm not trying to be argumentative, I really want to know the rationale! If anyone who understands combat balance better has time to explain it.
  • MishgulMishgul ROTHERHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMPosts: 5,305Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    shield tattoos absolutely destroy an apostate's offense. The abilities that are actually used to lead to a  killing blow are all prevented by shield. Deadeyes is a strong way to stack afflictions but it cannot kill anyone.

    Not sure about shaman. Have not played as one in years.

    -

    One of the symptoms of an approaching nervous breakdown is the belief that one's work is terribly important

    As drawn by Shayde
    hic locus est ubi mors gaudet succurrere vitae
  • AmranuAmranu Posts: 714Member ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    edited June 2015
    My experiences with this change so far:

    Using pure curses and mangles to lock a class not willing to stick around for curses simply cannot really happen, except with salvelock trickery that is easily defeated by curseward. The cost of 2.25 seconds balance per mangle is simply too high to use it to hinder for a lock setup, however it has been generally enough to let me get an aeon setup similar to what I used to be able to do. That being said, the cost for this setup has increased drastically from 43 fashions to about 53, which is unfortunate as against many fighters Maligus is simply not an option. It's also less reliable, as I have yet to actually get someone into aeon while prone, meaning that classes such as Blademaster and Occultists that can take advantage of not being prone to get away or escape this no longer works on.

    The reliability of kills seems like it was the main target for this change, so this is fine and with some tweaking and additional fashions I should be able to make this work against those classes. However I don't think the cost increase was realistically justified. If Maligus is difficult to balance at this point (this seems to be the case) I would prefer removing it rather than being given a severe disadvantage against anyone with the stats to make Maligus not even worth attempting. (Most INT classes, any prep class that feels like running whenever their mana gets low, anyone that has any artefact at all that increases mana regen/sip rate)
  • DochithaDochitha Posts: 1,069Member ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    My take is that:

    Putting people off salve-balance and prone to attempt a lock is not always possible, not before, not now, since curseward can be used while prone. Curseward is the single ability that can easily be used to break all finishers. There is nothing to counter Curseward either, except opponent if off-EQ for the entire lock attempt, which typically takes more than 8-10 curses as almost everyone has some sort of active/passive curing.

    Aeon setup is what I am currently doing, and I avoided relying on curses until target is actually in aeon (won't even try relapse asthma into aeon). The reason is the same, they can run - so we break their limbs and prone them, then they can still just curseward while prone.

    Mangle can have lower required fashion rather than 25. For a Shaman to pull off a kill strat, it likely takes more than 50 fashions against anyone prepared to defend against it. Many of my setups are at 70+ fashions, and I think the cap of 101 is too low too...can we have a higher cap at say 125-150 range? I can't complain about the fashions count needed to execute a kill, as Vodun is meant to be scary and powerful. Vodun cannot be nerfed to be NOT scary and NOT powerful, since we are going to stand there open for attack with very mild offensiveness while being patient fashioning up. Like all classes, if the prep fails, we have to re-fashion. Against many classes, our lengthy prep means surviving at least one or two of opponent's kill/lock attempts. It's hard to see a Shaman executing kill/lock attempt quicker/ahead of any other classes. So please don't nerf Vodun's power. If Vodun is going to be nerfed, the balance can be lower fashion required, and it's not sexy this way.

    Maligus is cool, I don't think it needs to be removed. While it gets nerfed and it's indeed tough against certain races with high INT or artied to the teeth, that is just the nature of it that we have to deal with fairly. We can still fashion slowly (made fair with our truefashion being higher than Jester, of course, we can't throw 3 daggers into a slow-lock slipped with mickey and powder and without using a puppet at all).

    Here's one opening:

    If a person is artied to the teeth going defensive with health arty, knights artied with str and weapons can take them down fairly. But if a person is artied with mana sip, regen, high INT, our bleed, Teraile bleed and Maligus mana drain are all flat. Bleed, Teraile bleed and Maligus drain can have a flat and int-scaled effect, not going too far off, but reward people with higher INT and respect Collars.

    Shaman can also have more artefact:
    - Arty that slows down fashion decay
    - Arty that improves truefashion hit chance by 2/5/10%
    - Arty that improves curses speed by 3/6/9%
    - Arty that increases the cap of fashion to 130/140/150
    (derailed a bit from room hindrance)


  • AmranuAmranu Posts: 714Member ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Regardless of anything, Vodun should not be balanced around Maligus, Maligus should be balanced around Vodun. An extra 75% fashion cost for use of mangle due to the very existence of a situational ability is insane.

    1) Maligus has a risk/reward component. Quite often attempting Maligus results in the enemy leaving before you can obtain fashions equivalent to what you would have managed just using straight fashions instead of prep. Alternatively, attempting Maligus actually strictly makes you less fashions than you could have made using normal fashion over the time you were prepping the person (e.g. @Proficy, @Santar, @Atalkez*). Does Maligus pay off sometimes? Yes, generally against people not watching their mana properly, or getting close enough to a kill so as to take that risk. Does this mean fashions should be lowered in value? Absolutely not.

    2) Use of Maligus inherently requires the loss of momentum, so I'm really not sure where this "in some situations you can use it to maintain momentum" stuff comes from. Either you're prepping someone for Maligus use by deliberately using abilities to drain their mana, or you're trying to do something else. These two only overlap when the opponent is not on mana priority, in which case Shamans should not be punished for their lack of combat knowledge/awareness. Either way, switching to Maligus instantly results in a loss of momentum - they will have cured either cured two afflictions that you could've maintained after one slow curse , or they cure one affliction and therefore you could have stuck another affliction. This is the opportunity cost of using Maligus, which alone is a good enough reason to remove the increased cost for Shaman.

    3) The logic of applying a cost increase to a single vodun ability alone is beyond me. Cripple buys at least as much breathing room as mangle, yet a similar cost increase applied to it would bring it to 12-13 fashions. Even a 25% cost increase due to us having abilities in vodun is insane, concussion for instance costing a massive 32 fashions. Due to this cost increase, and the inherent risk involved in using Maligus against people with situational awareness I am now needing to survive 2-3 kill attempts by prep classes before I can make even one of my own. I seriously doubt that this cost increase was intended to weaken Shaman on top of the general utility loss, but this is definitely the effect it has had.

    For all of these reasons the 75% fashion cost increase for Shaman just simply does not make sense and needs to be removed. If Maligus has problems, change or remove Maligus, as currently it is not usable against practiced opponents in any real form. This is of course partially due to people's ability to run whenever they see their mana fall below 85% with nothing stopping them, but also due to the problem @Dochitha posted, that -all- of our bleeding damage is flat and so we have no way of using Maligus against people with moderately sized mana pools, or artefacts to increase the rate at which they regain mana.


    * Atalkez is nice and occasionally lets me get fashions from Maligus off him instead of immediately evading away when his mana gets low. But then again, he rarely diagnoses my blights so there's that too. He plays suboptimally and still tends to win against me more often than not. Mostly due to learning to cure out of the aeon setup I'd mention previously and the fact that he now gets two kill attempts before I am really ready to attempt even one (prior to the nerf).

    Dochitha
  • CarbineCarbine Posts: 24Member ✭✭ - Stalwart
    Mishgul said:
    shield tattoos absolutely destroy an apostate's offense. The abilities that are actually used to lead to a  killing blow are all prevented by shield. Deadeyes is a strong way to stack afflictions but it cannot kill anyone.

    Not sure about shaman. Have not played as one in years.

    This is obviously one of those threads where people are hoping that if they complain enough Sarapis might take pity on them and rebuff them. Nice try as well Mishgul! No dice! What good is a shield if you've been soft locked, venom locked, hard locked, rift locked, ball locked, humgii locked, pad locked ...
    "Don't expect anything of yourself, and do what you know" - Legate Medi
  • MorthifMorthif Posts: 1,452Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    From what I see you win at least 90% of your fights. So it sounds like you are whining for a guaranteed kill on Jhui.
  • AmranuAmranu Posts: 714Member ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    I'm flattered you think I win that much, I don't but it would be nice.

    My last post contained several arguments for why mangle for Shamans is overpriced. It is currently 7 fashions, whereas Jesters get it for 4 fashions. I merely outlined why the reasoning behind this price increase was flawed in several ways, do you have anything to contribute regarding that. Any flaws you notice in my arguments? Feel free to post if so.

    Regarding Jhui, Maligus simply doesn't work on him. The best mana drain Shaman has is curse bleed, and after 11 full bleed swiftcurses I obtained a grand total of 0 fashions from maligus on the following slow curses. So in this respect, this cost increase is simply fucking Shaman over at the highest levels, simply because Maligus allows us to crush people that don't have arties or are otherwise unaware of Maligus.
    Praxides
  • MorthifMorthif Posts: 1,452Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Regarding Jhui.. The only thing that works is devour on deliverance.
  • AmranuAmranu Posts: 714Member ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    K well, I'm being punished against the best player in the game because of an ability that simply does not work on him in it's current state. I'm arguing that's not fair or balanced and I'm pretty sure anyone that's not being a troll should agree,
    PraxidesTharvis
  • AtalkezAtalkez Posts: 4,058Member, Secret Squirrel @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited June 2015
    Amranu said:
    K well, I'm being punished against the best player in the game because of an ability that simply does not work on him in it's current state. I'm arguing that's not fair or balanced and I'm pretty sure anyone that's not being a troll should agree,

    You're not the only one. The dude has 9k mana. He clotted through a broken torso pre impaleslash 4x twist setup versus me. You at least have a way to get him, he is 100% unbeatable by a blademaster outside of locking which is very very difficult to do.


    You hug Aurora compassionately.
  • AmranuAmranu Posts: 714Member ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    edited June 2015
    Jhui isn't the only person that makes Maligus not worth using. Virtually everyone in the higher tiers are aware of the ability and work to make it cost ineffective to even attempt to use it. Even against you, unless you let me get two procs of 6 fashions+ before running. it's far more reliable to simply fashion so as not to risk you letting get prep on me while I have a significant chance of getting nothing with Maligus when you run on low mana.
    Dochitha
  • TaelTael Posts: 1,197Member @ - Epic Achaean
    edited June 2015
    I feel like both of these are arguments in favor of some kind of scaling for mana costs to clot.

    Like maybe torso damage makes impaleslash add a percentile component to clotting too?

    And maybe some similar percentile thing for shaman? Maybe make Teraile a debuff that adds a percentile cost to clotting for bleed (maybe with some sort of affliction prerequisite) rather than a little extra bleeding?
    Dochitha
  • AtalkezAtalkez Posts: 4,058Member, Secret Squirrel @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Not asking for Blademaster buffs. If anything it needs scaled back.


    You hug Aurora compassionately.
    AerekKenway
  • JinsunJinsun TN, USAPosts: 2,825Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Yeah I still think @Amranu is still just upset he's not playing God mode anymore. Happens to the best of us.
    image
  • AmranuAmranu Posts: 714Member ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    You're not even reading what I'm talking about.
  • JinsunJinsun TN, USAPosts: 2,825Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I am, I just think it's not as huge of a problem as you think it is. I don't think it's really even worth addressing.
    image
  • AmranuAmranu Posts: 714Member ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    edited June 2015
    Ok, I guess that's probably the reason you're not on the ACC? @Makarios has already stated the cost might need to be adjusted, so apparently it's worth his time to review.

    I think I've provided excellent arguments to bring Shaman mangle back into parity with Jesters. Do you actually have any reason why this shouldn't be the case, or can I stop wasting my breath on someone who's not willing to have an intellectual conversation of any kind.
  • JinsunJinsun TN, USAPosts: 2,825Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Well it's kind of his role to review changes after they come in. If he just changed things without reviewing them we'd have a pretty skewed combat system. Just because he's going to review them doesn't mean there's some giant problem worthy of littering one thread then digging up an old thread. Mountains out of molehills and such.
    image
    Austere
  • AmranuAmranu Posts: 714Member ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    It's not your problem, why would you care? Go troll elsewhere
  • AhmetAhmet Wherever I wanna bePosts: 3,303Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Amranu said:
    Ok, I guess that's probably the reason you're not on the ACC? @Makarios has already stated the cost might need to be adjusted, so apparently it's worth his time to review.

    I think I've provided excellent arguments to bring Shaman mangle back into parity with Jesters. Do you actually have any reason why this shouldn't be the case, or can I stop wasting my breath on someone who's not willing to have an intellectual conversation of any kind.
    Because Shaman are a lot scarier than Jesters, and have more methods by which to attain fashions?

    Just an outsider thought. I may be crazy.
    Huh. Neat.
  • AmranuAmranu Posts: 714Member ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Already covered that in a previous post here, Ahmet
  • JinsunJinsun TN, USAPosts: 2,825Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Oh lord, where do I begin. You've not stopped to consider once that shaman doesn't need to be on a mangle level with jester, and I've heard many say that jester is damned near unbeatable 1 v 1 as is. I think deleting hangedman and bind even further fine tuning of soulrend and giving jester something comparable to compensate would make both classes immensely more enjoyable to fight while giving you guys something to do besides bind/ fashion and forcing you to use momentum. Most of the complaint now is that a personwitb
    effective curing a smart use of their
    skills can potentially avoid a previously unavoidable lock, but that you can still get kills if you can trick them or outpace them, which is really the case for many classes. Why on earth would someone want to fight a class where having enough fashions = a win? That you're providing arguments that you think are excellent for something that you think needs to be changed. My counter has and is still that you don't need room hindrance or easier mangles. Curseward not usable prone might be suitable though I still think is unwarranted given that it can't be spammed. Your arguments don't really make sense to me and I'm guessing a few others because you're complaining that you have trouble killing people in top tier while littering death sight with some pretty upper tier fights. Shaman has very few weaknesses and problems right now and you see the argument as something that needs to be fixed ASAP while the rest of us are like "phew shaman is a little more bearable." It may need tweaking in the future but you're still playing an awesome classes with amazing capabilities and it may be time to give it a rest. Take it from someone who complained as much as their class got chipped from god mode to boring.
    image
    Carbine
  • AustereAustere TennesseePosts: 2,063Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Amranu said:
    K well, I'm being punished against the best player in the game because of an ability that simply does not work on him in it's current state. I'm arguing that's not fair or balanced and I'm pretty sure anyone that's not being a troll should agree,
    Uh, disagreed. I have (almost) a fully artied staffcast. I cannot come close to out damaging Jhui.  Even if he sit in full vibes and let me use holocaust, I would die before he did.  Do I bitch about how unfair that is?  I prefer to get more creative and try different things instead of just relying on one ability to secure a kill.  If an ability does not work against someone, maybe you should try something else.  Shaman is one of the most open ended classes in existence right now.  There are so many combinations of ways to kill someone,  I could throw a rock and hit two that someone had never tried(trust me,  I have before). Does mangle need changed?  Probably not.  I would hate to be loop mangled in group fights.  Maligus probably does, but there is a very fine line between op and crap for Mali.  Do you think continuing this conversation into an infinite string of "no-u" is going to fix either?  Definitely not.   How about we all stop whining and let poppa Mak decide.
    Ethoas
  • AmranuAmranu Posts: 714Member ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    edited June 2015
    You're not even reading what I'm complaining about if you think I'm talking about the mechanics of mangle right now. I've strictly been arguing that the cost of mangle for Shaman being different from Jester is unjustified given that Soulrend does not work against most people with decent combat awareness. At no point have I complained about locks being harder, but merely that the lock is unreliable -and- also takes more time to get to.

    I have therefore been arguing that the 75% mangle cost increase is unjustified, as that is currently the main problem following the mangle nerf. At no point have I suggested any mechanical change to mangle since the nerf as some others have (i.e. lower balance times or whatever) because I don't know if those are really justified at this point. I do think Shaman might need something new to help prevent movement, but I think the cost of mangle is something that needs to be adjusted immediately, as it is punishing Shaman for having an ability that is not worth using against people that play properly against it. Jesters not having this ability have mangle at 4, and Shaman have it for 7 fashions. A 75% cost increase due to Maligus even though Maligus is not worthwhile against smart and/or artied opponents. Because of this, Shaman is in a worse position in the higher tiers than they should be with this costlier mangle.

    All I've been arguing for has been parity with Jesters for as long as Maligus remains in it's current state. In my personal opinion I don't think Vodun should never be balanced around Maligus, but that any adjustments needed to Maligus should be done to that ability unless Maligus becomes consistent enough that fashion could be completely removed from vodun and still have it as a usable skill against -all- opponents.
  • AmranuAmranu Posts: 714Member ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    edited June 2015
    Austere said:
    Amranu said:
    K well, I'm being punished against the best player in the game because of an ability that simply does not work on him in it's current state. I'm arguing that's not fair or balanced and I'm pretty sure anyone that's not being a troll should agree,
    Uh, disagreed. I have (almost) a fully artied staffcast. I cannot come close to out damaging Jhui.  Even if he sit in full vibes and let me use holocaust, I would die before he did.  Do I bitch about how unfair that is?  I prefer to get more creative and try different things instead of just relying on one ability to secure a kill.  If an ability does not work against someone, maybe you should try something else.  Shaman is one of the most open ended classes in existence right now.  There are so many combinations of ways to kill someone,  I could throw a rock and hit two that someone had never tried(trust me,  I have before). Does mangle need changed?  Probably not.  I would hate to be loop mangled in group fights.  Maligus probably does, but there is a very fine line between op and crap for Mali.  Do you think continuing this conversation into an infinite string of "no-u" is going to fix either?  Definitely not.   How about we all stop whining and let poppa Mak decide.
    The ability not working on Jhui is not the problem. The fashion cost of mangle being higher for Shamans against all opponents because of an ability existing that doesn't work on all opponents is the problem.

    I swear, is no one reading what I have been saying? I'm not sitting there hitting a brick wall trying to use Maligus against people. I'm using normal fashioning against people that I can't use Maligus on, but this doesn't change the reasoning behind the 75% higher fashion cost on mangle being due to Maligus. This is completely bullshit, for reasons I have already outlined multiple times in this thread.
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