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Shaman Room Hindrance

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  • JacenJacen Posts: 2,245Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Question for you big name fighters.

    This thread makes me wonder, should (or is?) prepping being phased out of Achaean combat? Should you have to slug it out with someone in the same room for an extended amount of time to have a chance at winning?
    image
  • AmranuAmranu Posts: 714Member ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    edited January 2015
    Serpents have pinshot, blademasters have hamstring. Monks have chasing ability. Ya got me on Bards.

    But I think the biggest thing here is that Shaman afflicting speed/ability will be hindered by using a spirit binding for room hindrance, reducing their ability to out afflict their opponents.

    Right now the bindings I take are almost entirely offensive, and using room hinder of some kind (whether it be similar to pinshot or something that's not quite room hinder - like an engage that drains mana on exit instead of health, which is a possibility I've suggested that no one's even both to consider) it would require me to lose the binding that allows me to relapse afflictions 2.5 seconds later once every 25 seconds, or the binding that allows me to destroy a vodun doll to do a balanceless imbibe to finish the lock.

    Losing the first greatly reduces the speed at which I can gain momentum in the first place, losing the second reduces my ability to simply lock someone outright, especially if they have fitness or an equivalent.

    Honestly, that's why this should even be considered - the modular structure of Spiritlore allows the addition of these kind of abilities to the class without being broken.
  • AmranuAmranu Posts: 714Member ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Oh and because Tarnel is just bad and needs something to make it worth existing, which was another point to this thread.
  • StunereeStuneree Posts: 221Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Well, it's not new that walking out of a room can outmatch afflictions.
    Plus I think you're quick to discount paralyze as hindrance. I know it's not technically "passive", but it's still a big deal when it's being paired with all of your other afflictions. 

    In my (inexperienced with combat) opinion, your class is in better condition than any other momentum class, (that's considering Jester to be prep). Apostate is literally ruined by stepping out of the room once it happens, and overusing curseward. If they decide to go for a vivisect, then shield. 

    I'll also mention the same as everyone else: Vodun is extremely strong. I, as a Jester, don't have any issue gaining fashions on serpents, and my hindrance does nothing to them at first. 

    But then again my combat skills are no skills, so take what you will from me.


  • WessuxWessux ChattanoogaPosts: 510Member ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    Jacen said:
    Question for you big name fighters.

    This thread makes me wonder, should (or is?) prepping being phased out of Achaean combat? Should you have to slug it out with someone in the same room for an extended amount of time to have a chance at winning?
    I'm not really one of the big name fighters you asked for, but the answer is no. Prepping is still and should always be a big part of combat. Most momentum/affliction classes can lock/kill you in 15 seconds if you are not on your A game and they know what they are doing. If it was just see who could slug it out the quickest combat would be short and boring, and victory would go to the person who fired the first shot. Prep classes keep combat dynamic. 
    Invest in a 9mm retirement plan.
  • SeftinSeftin Posts: 923Member @ - Epic Achaean
    Shaman doesn't need room hinderance. If you want a form of hinderance, spend 1000cr and get bracers of frost. Shaman has insane affliction speed, paired with the ability to keep up swift curse without having to waste eq on it every 11 seconds. You can re-up for X curses without having to worry about really losing any momentum, you have a 4 second insta kill based on your 1± second curses.

    Use vodun to keep them in room, now you don't need to worry about erupting swift curse you could mangle/cripple/curse the heck out of someone without them being able to leave beyond tumble - same for Jesters. Yes we have banana etc, however you have 1 second afflictions of everything you need (2 seconds on imbibe for one) for a lock, everything you need for a non-focusable tzantza (you can give the basic afflictions without having to use a herb that requires focusing) and you can even do some crazy bleed/damage tactics.

    Use blight with your curses, focus on the vodun side of things (like jester) with your amazing affliction abilities (see blighted vardrax for some ideas).

    Sure, you can't keep me in room with you if I don't want you to, but then nor can a priest/apostate/jester/knight/mage etc. Do they have room hinderance? Yes.

    Do they have both slow-prep and burst capability? No, by that I mean if I leave the room and you have fashions, you've lost nothing in fact you have gained some strategy from it if you are diverse. You can be as cheap as a jester with a much quicker finish, or as devastating as an EQgem occultist with some quick afflictions into yet again, another quick finish.

    tl/dr shaman doesn't need room hinderance outside what they have available (icewalls or even bracers of frost if it's that big a deal - which it isn't)
    Dochitha
  • TalysinTalysin Posts: 575Member ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Cooper said:
    If rebounding is worthless, and using shield does nothing, and you can't hinder because shaman can out hinder you or you are a class with little hinder, and you can't cure shamans as fast as they afflict you, and you can't out slow prep them, and you can't run away, how do you expect people to fight you?

    Do you also think that monks should have massive room hinder? Or bards? Or serpents? Or Blademasters?

    What makes shaman so special? You already have more options than every other class.
    I'm reposting this.
  • ExelethrilExelethril moar theta decayPosts: 3,106Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    ٩(͡๏̯๏)۶ NAYA-TAYA-NAKATA ٩(͡๏̯๏)۶ Room hinder with shaman aff speed would be too strong.

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  • KenwayKenway San FranciscoPosts: 1,123Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Shaman has some of  the fastest afflicting in the game + fashions (prep but without the 3min timer) + ability to get multiple fashions passively while afflicting (at 1s per). So that's potentially (as you yourself showed me) like 10 fashions a second.




    Why do they need room hindrance again?

    - Limb Counter - Fracture Relapsing -
    "Honestly, I just love that it counts limbs." - Mizik Corten
  • AmranuAmranu Posts: 714Member ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Delete thread, I was a bad at the time and this was a terrible idea.
    SantarAedinKenwayWessux
  • BluefBluef DelosPosts: 2,176Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited March 2015
    Some people (not necessarily Amranu) miss abusing wunjo/nairat to hell and back. He has a point that icefort isn't worth the binding cost - but that's why tether is so useful. But if a shaman is already making use of that, we're still left with plenty of options (curses that hinder, vodun limb damage, vodun binding, vodun command, web, etc.). Hell, I've worn people out just hitting clumsy/paralyse/stupid on repeat in between fashions to the point they're like yeah screw that and I think we can all agree I'm not the best shaman combatant.
  • AmranuAmranu Posts: 714Member ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    This thread was started before tether was added to spiritlore and before I had more experience than currently. Meh.
    Bluef
  • AchimrstAchimrst NaturePosts: 3,608Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    This thread:



  • MizikMizik Posts: 2,027Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Is dizzy a curse?

    Can consider. 
    image
    Achimrst
  • DaeirDaeir AustraliaPosts: 6,266Member, Secret Squirrel @@ - Legendary Achaean
    This thread is learning. He learned why he was wrong.

    That is more than a lot of people do, and now he is killing people.

    Props to you, friend.
    Theris
  • AchimrstAchimrst NaturePosts: 3,608Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Daeir said:
    This thread is learning. He learned why he was wrong.

    That is more than a lot of people do, and now he is killing people.

    Props to you, friend.
    He was already killing people, he just wanted to kill them faster.
    Bluef
  • AmranuAmranu Posts: 714Member ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    edited June 2015
    Necroing this thread because this is very justified now.

    With the recent change to mangle, Shaman have no hope in hell of keeping people in place for a kill sequence outside of sheer stupidity. Please give us something for the love of god.
    Dochitha
  • AtalkezAtalkez Posts: 4,061Member, Secret Squirrel @@ - Legendary Achaean
    How? You can still give all lock affs in one restoration balance by mangling arms and giving addiction.


    You hug Aurora compassionately.
    Jinsun
  • JinsunJinsun TN, USAPosts: 2,825Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Dude stop trying to make shaman room hindrance a thing, it's not going to happen.
    image
    Austere
  • AtalkezAtalkez Posts: 4,061Member, Secret Squirrel @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Also vodun cripple prones, not to mention how much stuff you can do without them even in room. Shaman has to be survivable, it's already one of the harder classes to live through.


    You hug Aurora compassionately.
    Austere
  • AmranuAmranu Posts: 714Member ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Atalkez, mangle is nerfed. Get with the times. None of what you're talking about is possible on a 2 second balance per mangle.
  • AtalkezAtalkez Posts: 4,061Member, Secret Squirrel @@ - Legendary Achaean

    Force apply head, vodun cripple, force restore?

    Mangle leg, mangle leg, mangle arm, mangle arm, breach (assuming a curseward here) into lock afflictions with addiction to stop outr and with para to stop running after they stand, about the same time as the first resto on arm finishes. Assuming you've already stuck slickness, they can't mending and they'll be locked.

    Vodun cripple, mangle leg, mangle leg, strip speed, aeon into lock affs.

    Was this a big nerf? Yes. Does it make it impossible for you to do stuff? No.

    You just have to work harder for it now. The previous incarnation was entirely too hard to live through with any realistic chance of success.

    You're also acting like Force/AoE/Aeon/Binding is all useless. Vodun is still the strongest skillset in the game, imo.



    You hug Aurora compassionately.
  • AmranuAmranu Posts: 714Member ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Mangle leg, mangle leg, mangle arm, mangle arm, breach (assuming a curseward here) into lock afflictions with addiction to stop outr and with para to stop running after they stand, about the same time as the first resto on arm finishes. Assuming you've already stuck slickness, they can't mending and they'll be locked.

    Won't work. Lemme theorycraft you this. I'll even add a force restore for kicks.


    0 force restore

    2 mangle leg

    4 mangle leg, apply first leg
    6 mangle arm
    8 mangle arm, first leg cured, apply second leg
    10 curse breach
    11 curse something, insta cured
    12 curse something, not stuck yet, also second leg resto cured, first leg mending cured
    13 curse something, stuck, second leg mending cure, stand, run

    It gets even better if they curseward immediately following the breach, because they've had 10 seconds to recover eq from a breach before this combo.


    Dochitha
  • XinnaXinna Posts: 691Member ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean

    If mangle needs slight alterations because of the nerf (which is possible), the logical thing to ask for would be those. It still exists; thus, shaman does not need something else entirely to hold people down.

    Mangle could maybe use a slight balance cost reduction or the ability to prone + mangle leg at the same time, to put it more on par with other limb breakers, since it only does half of what it used to.

  • AtalkezAtalkez Posts: 4,061Member, Secret Squirrel @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Amranu said:
    Mangle leg, mangle leg, mangle arm, mangle arm, breach (assuming a curseward here) into lock afflictions with addiction to stop outr and with para to stop running after they stand, about the same time as the first resto on arm finishes. Assuming you've already stuck slickness, they can't mending and they'll be locked.

    Won't work. Lemme theorycraft you this. I'll even add a force restore for kicks.


    0 force restore

    2 mangle leg

    4 mangle leg, apply first leg
    6 mangle arm
    8 mangle arm, first leg cured, apply second leg
    10 curse breach
    11 curse something, insta cured
    12 curse something, not stuck yet, also second leg resto cured, first leg mending cured
    13 curse something, stuck, second leg mending cure, stand, run

    It gets even better if they curseward immediately following the breach, because they've had 10 seconds to recover eq from a breach before this combo.



    Force apply head before that string and they can't curseward until near the end because off EQ from the resto after restore. I've never played Shaman so I don't know 100% of how everything works, but I feel like you're overreacting to the change when there are still -lots- of options available. If the balance needs reduced I'm sure Mak daddy will get to it.


    You hug Aurora compassionately.
  • AmranuAmranu Posts: 714Member ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Sorry meant force apply head not force restore.
  • TaelTael Posts: 1,197Member @ - Epic Achaean
    edited June 2015
    Would removing curseward be a possible solution? Gaining back that one second and avoiding the potential for cursewarding again after the breach?

    I guess I don't really fully appreciate the implications, but it's always seemed like such a random, legacy ability. Survival doesn't give you the ability to ignore the first affliction of a bard or a serpent or an alchemist or any other affliction class in the same way. Why do curses and evileye have this general defense that nothing else does? And if we want them to have such a defence against curses...why isn't it just shield like for every other class (and no truecurse/truestare), so the defence has the normal shield restrictions (breaks on offensive actions for instance)?

    I've never really understood why curseward exists. Can anyone enlighten me?
  • DochithaDochitha Posts: 1,070Member ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    edited June 2015
    @tael We kinda need to figure breaching into all locks, or put them off-EQ so they don't curseward. You can even curseward when you are prone. Next time you see a curse that does "relapse", curseward immediately. If you expect someone is gonna use soulscourge as opening, or midway, curseward immediately after the soulscourge, EVEN if you are prone. I shouldn't be talking these but this is how all the momentum is broken. Don't think curseward will be removed at all, it is important to balance combat, but if it will, I am happy to take it! But  yeah, it can be made like shield tattoo that breaks itself on offense.

    @amranu is right about single restoration apply is not sufficient for most strategies.

    Even with the previous level 3 breaks with mangles, riftlock requires almost a quad.

    Breaking a limb for a 4s salve-off in attempt to lock is insufficient for any lock to be cursed, previously we will use that 2 salves and most likely lock AFTER the 2nd salve apply for 4s of 4 curses.

    Mangling takes 2.3s with nimble, healing up and stand is only 4s. The window is 1.7s per mangle, which is not even 2 curses (at least DSL/dstab gets 2 afflictions in that 1.7s window, we can only get ONE in).

    Seriously, folks do not realize 2 afflictions every 2s is FAR better than one affliction every 1s, which makes a lot of difference, as one of the afflictions gets to stick 1s longer. IE curare/xentio, target cures curare, xentio is effective the entire 2s. While curse paralyse, curse clumsy, clumsy is there AFTER 1s, not from the beginning. And clumsy has an intended effect against physical classes. But this is not an issue, as this is Shaman's uniqueness.

    @xinna Agree it's a great idea for mangling to use a quicker balance, or mangling leg prones, both works!

    That said, even when you are prone, and you know a lock is coming, just curseward my friend. It will save your life, and prio salve on your arms (avoid riftlock), not legs (tell me I am wrong?), cos you can be prone in front of a Shaman and still curseward at the right time to stop lock, why run. I think curseward should not be usable while prone!

    I am really curious and excited about what's in the store for Shamans!



  • AtalkezAtalkez Posts: 4,061Member, Secret Squirrel @@ - Legendary Achaean

    Too easy to prone as Shaman for it to not be usable while prone.

    Maybe if you have 1 or 2 broken arms you can't?



    You hug Aurora compassionately.
    Dochitha
  • MakariosMakarios Posts: 1,577Administrator Achaean staff
    My initial inclination would be for curseward to not be useable while prone. It was intended primarily as a momentum slower, not a finisher interrupter. We will give it some further thought.
    Dochitha
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