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Advanced S&B - mechanics, theory, math

ErnamErnam Member Posts: 2,416 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
[ This is also for S&B Infernals / Paladins, not just Runewarden ]

I'm going to be doing some advanced research, including determination of various equations, for all of the new knight types - starting with S&B.

If anyone would like to talk about theory, strategies, discuss mechanics (as they currently work), or help with (or request) testing, please let me know.  Feel free to discuss here, PM me, message me in game, depending on what you want to talk about or help with.

For starters, could someone provide a basic description of how the S&B abilities synergize, to give context to the rest of the discussion(s)?

"Our lives are not our own. We are bound to others, past and present. And by each crime and every kindness, we birth our future."


        Manda  |  Godzilla  |  SLC

      Comments

      • JhuiJhui Member Posts: 1,952 @@ - Legendary Achaean
        advanced research eh?
        image
        AtalkezXinnaBluefDalran
      • ErnamErnam Member Posts: 2,416 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean

        Primarily, solving the damage and limb damage equations, as well as measuring the speed of the various attacks, impact of different shield types, etc.

        I'm uh, not sure how that is funny, but I'm glad the anti-Ernam crew got a kick out of it.

        "Our lives are not our own. We are bound to others, past and present. And by each crime and every kindness, we birth our future."


              Manda  |  Godzilla  |  SLC
            Rom
          1. AtalkezAtalkez Member, Secret Squirrel Posts: 3,788 @@ - Legendary Achaean

            It is funny because your topic seems to imply that all of the testing being done now, is not "advanced".

            I'm sure @Jhui @Makarios @Nemutaur and the countless others that have been posting non-stop in all of the various Knight threads right now, have been doing a great job of learning the nuances of the new changes.

            Maybe that's just me!



            You hug Aurora compassionately.
          2. JulesJules Member Posts: 2,169 @ - Epic Achaean
            It would be nice to see all that good stuff in the class sections (as this thread is), especially for people looking for information down the road.  Actually, since things do tend to mash together, seeing things tagged up might be even better.  
          3. ErnamErnam Member Posts: 2,416 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean

            I'm a day or two away from having the Slice and Rend (exact) equations perfected.  Big thanks to the few people helping me with the data runs.  Zero thanks to the people polluting this thread with insults and whatever.

            For Manda users, please look forward to seeing Manda support S&B in the near future, and other knight specialisations soon thereafter.

            "Our lives are not our own. We are bound to others, past and present. And by each crime and every kindness, we birth our future."


                  Manda  |  Godzilla  |  SLC
              1. ErnamErnam Member Posts: 2,416 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
                edited January 2015

                Oh hey, solved the Slice & Rend equations.  Works for both weapon types, of all four levels, to include the effects of laguz for runewardens.

                Will have it in Manda some time this week.

                May require a slight tweak or two, but I haven't been able to find an error yet.  (but the equation is aesthetic enough that I'm fairly confident it is correct as is)




                I'm still looking for someone with knuckles to generate some Tekura spreadsheets for me.  Will pay in credits for anyone able to get it done for me (thus avoiding two class hops to/from a class I don't wish to actually play).

                "Our lives are not our own. We are bound to others, past and present. And by each crime and every kindness, we birth our future."


                      Manda  |  Godzilla  |  SLC
                    AustereJulesAtalkez
                  1. AustereAustere TennesseeMember Posts: 2,022 @@ - Legendary Achaean
                    Sincerely, that is pretty cool. You have way more patience than I do and I think you do your customers service. Good going.
                  2. ErnamErnam Member Posts: 2,416 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
                    edited January 2015

                    After having solved the decade-long mystery of limb damage, I still strongly wish that they'd just announce it publicly.

                    However, since I've now spend dozent, if not hundreds of hours* working on it, I can't say I'm feeling generous.  I'd still be happy if they just announced it though. [[ * seems silly in hindsight, since it isn't really that complicated, it's just really hard to figure out that it is simple.  It's like inventing special relativity to "prove" that things fall if you drop them.  ]]

                    The other thing is that I suspect that there are other players who know the equation/mechanics, perhaps in even more detail, due to having input in development (maybe ACC, maybe not), but I'm certainly not the only guy who knows it.  Then there's @Makarios who must enjoy being the warden of virtually every secret there is.

                    "Our lives are not our own. We are bound to others, past and present. And by each crime and every kindness, we birth our future."


                          Manda  |  Godzilla  |  SLC
                      1. MorthifMorthif Member Posts: 1,379 @ - Epic Achaean
                        Wait, so what was the point of this thread?
                        TaelUtianima
                      2. NemutaurNemutaur GermanyMember Posts: 1,068 @ - Epic Achaean
                        Ernam said:

                        After having solved the decade-long mystery of limb damage, I still strongly wish that they'd just announce it publicly.

                        However, since I've now spend dozent, if not hundreds of hours* working on it, I can't say I'm feeling generous.  I'd still be happy if they just announced it though. [[ * seems silly in hindsight, since it isn't really that complicated, it's just really hard to figure out that it is simple.  It's like inventing special relativity to "prove" that things fall if you drop them.  ]]

                        The other thing is that I suspect that there are other players who know the equation/mechanics, perhaps in even more detail, due to having input in development (maybe ACC, maybe not), but I'm certainly not the only guy who knows it.  Then there's @Makarios who must enjoy being the warden of virtually every secret there is.
                        I don't have the formula for limb health, just a really good idea what it looks like based on the work that Nitro and Rennyn did ages ago. I don't think anyone in ACC actually has a formula that they can say is 100% what Rapture uses (or something that actually gives you the curve).
                      3. ErnamErnam Member Posts: 2,416 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
                        edited January 2015
                        Morthif said:
                        Wait, so what was the point of this thread?

                        I was naively hoping that we could talk about strategy or advanced mechanics.  For instance, I have a question pertaining to Slice and Rend.

                        I have noticed that the speed ratio between them is exactly (or almost exactly) the same as the limb damage ratio (but reversed), assuming Nimble trait (which was an assumption in the design for knights).

                        The result of this is that over any given period of time, there is no clear difference between them for limb damage purposes, aside from the obvious fact that with Slice combos you're going to be delivering afflictions much faster (while achieving identical limb prep per time), and nearly the same (if not exactly the same) HP damage, as well.

                        Thus, I actually don't understand why Rend exists.

                        I raised this question with a few individuals in game, and it was suggested that if nothing else, it's good for playing whack-a-mole with serpents, BMs, or people who like to spam enmesh/hangedman, etc.  That is somewhat useful, but only as a convenience factor.  All it does is require less annoyance, it doesn't actually benefit any particular strategy or allow anything that wasn't otherwise possible with a few more hits from Slice instead.



                        Given that I've been S&B Knight for 2 days, it's totally possible that I'm overlooking something.  If so, please let me know - because at this time, I can't see myself ever using the ability.

                        [note] At lowbie/midbie levels, use of Rend is a bit "easier" to prep/break with, since it does more limb damage per hit, allowing easier "guesswork" of when your opponents' limb will break.  However, it should be relatively obvious that breaking a limb with Rend would be pretty dumb, since it's quite slow (~3.1 seconds with level 3 longsword and nimble).


                        If I'm not missing something, then perhaps we might brainstorm adding some kind of mechanical difference between the attacks, to give Rend a more meaningful existence.

                        "Our lives are not our own. We are bound to others, past and present. And by each crime and every kindness, we birth our future."


                              Manda  |  Godzilla  |  SLC
                            Atalkez
                          1. CooperCooper Member Posts: 3,974 @@ - Legendary Achaean
                            Nemutaur said:
                            I don't have the formula for limb health, just a really good idea what it looks like based on the work that Nitro and Rennyn did ages ago. I don't think anyone in ACC actually has a formula that they can say is 100% what Rapture uses (or something that actually gives you the curve).
                            It's available through the other IRE games, a few people have known it for years and years.

                          2. NemutaurNemutaur GermanyMember Posts: 1,068 @ - Epic Achaean
                            Cooper said:
                            Nemutaur said:
                            I don't have the formula for limb health, just a really good idea what it looks like based on the work that Nitro and Rennyn did ages ago. I don't think anyone in ACC actually has a formula that they can say is 100% what Rapture uses (or something that actually gives you the curve).
                            It's available through the other IRE games, a few people have known it for years and years.
                            Oh interesting, theirs based on the e function too?
                          3. ErnamErnam Member Posts: 2,416 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
                            edited January 2015

                            Neither of them are.

                            "Our lives are not our own. We are bound to others, past and present. And by each crime and every kindness, we birth our future."


                                  Manda  |  Godzilla  |  SLC
                              1. KenwayKenway San FranciscoMember Posts: 1,120 @@ - Legendary Achaean
                                @Ernam Rend works nicely in tandem with the SHIELDSTRIKE LOW parry bypass. Two hits through their parry instead of one. SHIELDSTRIKE <target> LOW;COMBINATION <target> REND <parry> CONCUSS seems to work pretty nicely. Same deal if they make the mistake of shielding and you get in a RAZE/TRIP combo.

                                - Limb Counter - Fracture Relapsing -
                                "Honestly, I just love that it counts limbs." - Mizik Corten
                              2. ErnamErnam Member Posts: 2,416 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
                                Kenway said:
                                @Ernam Rend works nicely in tandem with the SHIELDSTRIKE LOW parry bypass. Two hits through their parry instead of one. SHIELDSTRIKE <target> LOW;COMBINATION <target> REND <parry> CONCUSS seems to work pretty nicely. Same deal if they make the mistake of shielding and you get in a RAZE/TRIP combo.

                                For parry bypass it totally makes sense.  Thanks much.

                                "Our lives are not our own. We are bound to others, past and present. And by each crime and every kindness, we birth our future."


                                      Manda  |  Godzilla  |  SLC
                                  1. ErnamErnam Member Posts: 2,416 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
                                    edited January 2015

                                    On another note, I'm beta testing (by myself) both Manda (limb tracking) and Gz for S&B right now.

                                    Here's a screenshot of Manda going at it

                                    The numbers on the bottom of the GUI are longsword slice|rend, then broadsword slice|rend. (rounded)   [note: the GUI is open-source and easily customizable, moved into sub-windows, moved, resized, etc]

                                    There's a prompt display too for people who like that (although I have it count down to break, not count hits).  Switches automatically between long/broadsword.

                                    @Makarios can we please get Knight spec added to gmcp.Char.Status?


                                    S&B.jpg 196.2K

                                    "Our lives are not our own. We are bound to others, past and present. And by each crime and every kindness, we birth our future."


                                          Manda  |  Godzilla  |  SLC
                                      1. AntoniusAntonius Member Posts: 4,048 @@ - Legendary Achaean
                                        Also has some use as a damage spike to try to finish them off if they survived a disembowel. Sort of equivalent to switching to battleaxes as dual cutting or flails as dual blunt.
                                      2. AustereAustere TennesseeMember Posts: 2,022 @@ - Legendary Achaean
                                        Aepas said:
                                        Wait so is this an actual discussion thread on how things are working or a shameless self promotion for a new curing system?
                                        Well his original purpose was to get help with some of this. Since no one answered in a legitimate fashion, it became advertising and questions. I am sure if you start discussing, dude will respond. He probably enjoys that more than talking to himself. .
                                        MishgulSeifur
                                      3. AepasAepas Member Posts: 1,619 @@ - Legendary Achaean
                                        Austere said:
                                        Aepas said:
                                        Wait so is this an actual discussion thread on how things are working or a shameless self promotion for a new curing system?
                                        Well his original purpose was to get help with some of this. Since no one answered in a legitimate fashion, it became advertising and questions. I am sure if you start discussing, dude will respond. He probably enjoys that more than talking to himself. .

                                        Ah, guess I'm just used to Sena making knowledge public.
                                        Replies the scorpion: "It's my nature..."
                                        Mishgul
                                      4. AustereAustere TennesseeMember Posts: 2,022 @@ - Legendary Achaean
                                        Aepas said:
                                        Austere said:
                                        Aepas said:
                                        Wait so is this an actual discussion thread on how things are working or a shameless self promotion for a new curing system?
                                        Well his original purpose was to get help with some of this. Since no one answered in a legitimate fashion, it became advertising and questions. I am sure if you start discussing, dude will respond. He probably enjoys that more than talking to himself. .

                                        Ah, guess I'm just used to Sena making knowledge public.
                                        Sena enjoys math and it seems like she enjoys sharing it. Ernam likes to be paid. Can't blame the guy for wanting to be paid. His affliction tracking has always seemed priced a bit steep to me, but that is the goal. He doesn't want everyone to have it. If his limb counter is as good as he boasts, there is no room to complain. What does he want, 25 dollars[3.5 hours @ minimum wage]? Good luck even writing an illusion proof system for that, let alone gathering the equations. No thanks, would rather shell out the cash and make someone else fix it when it breaks.
                                        JulesMishgulErnam
                                      5. JulesJules Member Posts: 2,169 @ - Epic Achaean
                                        People in this game are unbelievably weird about what they have "learned" they should and shouldn't pay money for, and what they expect for their money.  As a whole, they manage to be bratty and entitled about certain things, and hopelessly naive and easily taken advantage of in other situations.  It's amazing.  
                                        Mishgul
                                      6. ErnamErnam Member Posts: 2,416 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
                                        edited January 2015
                                        Yeah I make (significantly)less per time on my systems than forgers, refillers, and even crafters. The thing that I think most people don't understand is how much time it actually takes. I have like a 2-4 hour window cut out every day for answering my deluge of Skype/piratepad/email questions, on top of trying to keep up to date with all the new changes.

                                        "Our lives are not our own. We are bound to others, past and present. And by each crime and every kindness, we birth our future."


                                              Manda  |  Godzilla  |  SLC
                                            Mishgul
                                          1. TaelTael Member Posts: 1,197 @ - Epic Achaean
                                            edited January 2015
                                            Austere said:
                                            Aepas said:
                                            Wait so is this an actual discussion thread on how things are working or a shameless self promotion for a new curing system?
                                            Well his original purpose was to get help with some of this. Since no one answered in a legitimate fashion, it became advertising and questions. I am sure if you start discussing, dude will respond. He probably enjoys that more than talking to himself. .
                                            I get that that was the stated purpose, but this is what actually happened:
                                            1. Ernam posts a thread about testing, advanced strategies, and begins by asking for someone to summarise the basic spec strategy (admittedly, I think he was asking someone to do this for everyone else's benefit so people reading this thread have some idea what's going on).
                                            2. Jhui makes a pretty innocuous joke about the combination of the stated aim to discuss "advanced" stuff and the request for really basic information.
                                            3. Ernam immediately starts complaining about the "anti-Ernam crew".
                                            4. Ernam says he's solved things, offers essentially no information, and advertises his scripts.
                                            5. Ernam says "I was naively hoping that we could talk about strategy or advanced mechanics." without having previously posted a single question or anything for discussion.
                                            After that a couple of people made what might be considered pertinent comments, then we somehow ended up in a discussion about whether or not it's reasonable to charge people for things that you produce (spoiler alert: it is - duh, and Ernam's scripts seem to be pretty nice too, particularly for the price).

                                            I think this thread would probably have gone over better if Ernam had actually offered something for discussion rather than simply saying "The topic is SnB mechanics. Discuss." and then repeatedly posted advertisements, including a post that just shows off the GUI of his script, with absolutely nothing to do with the stated aim of the thread.

                                            I am however still interested in Ernam's initial request - can anyone explain the basic strategy for SnB?
                                            Addama
                                          2. ErnamErnam Member Posts: 2,416 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
                                            edited January 2015
                                            @Tael‌ ;

                                            Lets end the derail (that is discussing the derailment).

                                            Your #1 was accurate, I was simply hoping to establish a basic outline of basic strategies down to provide context for the rest of the thread, to avoid simply providing my own personal point of view which may be lacking or biased.  It is a little weird since I am both still "new" at the class, but I expect to be "advanced" in a class within about 4-5 days of switching (since I usually delve directly into advanced mechanics, math, etc, since I'm already well familiarized with "general" combat theory/strategies, such as locking, hindrance, etc).

                                            I have since that post come up with a few general strategies for S&B, and I find the class intriguing in that like BM and some of the other newer classes (including the re-worked classes), it is designed to be able to push several things at once, forcing the knight to dynamically manage their offense, and forcing their opponent to dynamically manage/choose between defensive strategies/priorities.

                                            I haven't gotten to the point where I'd be comfortable outlining all of the possible routes for S&B, particularly since I've had two new ones provided to me in the last 24 hours that I hadn't considered (despite being somewhat basic).


                                            One of the core concepts of S&B, which is also more or less a "new" concept is venomlocking without access to impatience.  While using mental stacks is an old and powerful technique, S&B has far more capability of pursuing this (notably similar to priest's spirit disrupt) in that it has a very powerful Smash High ability that delivers a "smart" mental affliction, particularly in combination with Shieldstrike High, which disrupts Focus balance.  Shieldstrike high itself is a very "complex" ability in that it requires quite a bit of decision-making and timing to be used most effectively.  It can only be used, at most, every 3 combinations (expends 3 Ferocity out of max of 4), in conjunction with the fact that it is most effectively used while your opponent's has or is about to recover focus balance (it's least effectively used right after they focus).

                                            Like voicecraft balance, shrugging, etc, this means you can simply use it every time it becomes available, but this is certainly not the best way to use it - making it a powerful ability early on that scales very well with skill.  Actually "venomlocking" people with S&B will presumably require judicial use of this ability (combined with other abilities, of course).


                                            Some other discussion could be made regarding the use of blackout.  While it's quite powerful, it comes at the expense of ferocity, and requires prone.  So once again, not only does it require timing and even planning, but it also requires dynamic, intelligent decision-making between using this and other conditional attacks, which is not always a very easy decision, even in out-of-combat theorycrafting.

                                            The combination of damage pressure and well-timed kill strategy execution is always very interesting, in that you can't just kill people with damage without affliction & prep momentum (like Blademaster was supposed to be).  Assuming equal skill and arties, you can't just single-leg DSB and actually kill people, and you may even need to lock, semi-lock, riftlock, mental stack, etc - to be able to kill certain opponents, which is awesome.

                                            I'll try to actually provide some more complete strategies /comments once I am more confident in my ability to do so without making basic mistakes or leaving out basic concepts.  For now, I'm still "studying" the class, which again, was a big part of why I created the thread.

                                            Lets avoid the snowballing "lets derail the thread talking about how the thread is derailed" thing (which I may not have helped with, admittedly), and focus on talking about some of the awesome new strategies and concepts, many of which have probably yet to be discovered/implemented.


                                            "Our lives are not our own. We are bound to others, past and present. And by each crime and every kindness, we birth our future."


                                                  Manda  |  Godzilla  |  SLC
                                                Tael
                                              1. KenwayKenway San FranciscoMember Posts: 1,120 @@ - Legendary Achaean
                                                Couple quick corrections/clarifications:

                                                Shieldstrike high doesn't throw off focus balance, it's a short stun (yes this effectively disables focus but it also can be used for herbs/salves/etc)

                                                Smash high is what has the focus effect. Being hit with smash high afflicts with Dizzines>Recklessness>Stupidity>and two others I truthfully can't recall off the top of my head but it -also- effectively wastes your focus on the hit.

                                                Concuss requires no ferocity whatsoever. This means if they're prone, you can use blackout, the end. The ONLY abilities that use ferocity are the shieldstrikes. (which cannot be combo'd and can be done off balance or in conjunction with a combo IE shieldstrike target low;combination target rend concuss as a parry bypass)

                                                - Limb Counter - Fracture Relapsing -
                                                "Honestly, I just love that it counts limbs." - Mizik Corten
                                                Ernam
                                              2. ErnamErnam Member Posts: 2,416 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
                                                Thanks yeah, I'm not at my computer so I can't reference the AB files, and I will admit that I think of the abilities in terms of their effects, not their actual names (so I'm constantly mixing them up). You can combo shieldstrikes though, just not as a part of the Combination ability. As for concuss, can you combo it? (Again, not at home to test it myself). If not, you'd lose ferocity. If so, then badass, that's really strong.

                                                "Our lives are not our own. We are bound to others, past and present. And by each crime and every kindness, we birth our future."


                                                      Manda  |  Godzilla  |  SLC
                                                  1. KenwayKenway San FranciscoMember Posts: 1,120 @@ - Legendary Achaean
                                                    Yes you can combo concuss.

                                                    - Limb Counter - Fracture Relapsing -
                                                    "Honestly, I just love that it counts limbs." - Mizik Corten
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