The Big Change - Combat

Ernam

@Wessux I didn't make a word of that up, and I'd have to say I'd rather be ignored or brushed off than called a liar.  I consistently back up the things I say, and they are consistently fixed.  The only reasons I didn't post the logs (again) was because I already have, multiple times, and I didn't feel like digging through the forums for an hour to find them, and don't have a monk to generate new ones.


@Jovolo yeah I meant it exactly as you read it, all curing on, fully deffed and not using any active abilities (neither of which you mentioned would actually save you from a BBT sequence as a dragon or infernal without a totem. As a runie, tumbling into wunjo/nairat does completely stop the kill sequence, as the monk can't chase for follow up BBT, and use of prefarar or WWK in the combo to stop tumble drastically reduces the total damage of the combo, making it easily tanka le by a comparably equipped player).

This isn't conjecture, these are mathematical facts.  Since every experienced knight/dragon seems to know these and use them in actual fights, I am forced to wonder if some people are temporarily suspending their actual knowledge and experience in order to argue with me on this.

Nemutaur

@Wessux level 2 is actually horrible damage increase compared to level 0 to 1, so not worth it cause most of the time you just get caught.

The only way I see that possible is with bug abuse from the Infernal. He'd need an SoA wielded, lvl3 sip, lvl3 regen and TF. Then the enfeeble would have to come 0.1s before sip balance of infernal was regained and the infernal would need to be removing lvl3 belt and lvl3 bracelet and only wearing them to sip (which is bug abuse or rather not allowed). Then maybe they walk away with 20 health more than when the whole thing started, just maybe.

Jovolo

I'd be more than happy to believe you if you provided some evidence, it's just that your post didn't contain any. Nor have I ever seen you post what you claimed and I follow the combat section on this forum almost religiously. No one is arguing against you because you're you, just because your arguments have no substance other than your own anecdotal information. Give us more, we'll believe more.

Ernam

@Nemutaur balance vs latency shouldn't be mentioned since queuing should be factored in, particularly for monk BBTs, IMO.  Also note that the real argument is whether or not monks can -kill- infernals, not if they come out with more health (which is possible, but only in specific examples, like he one you mentioned.  Note also that the requirements drop quickly for players with "normal" strength.)

i can can see how it's tempting to jump on that specific statement, but do you agree that even coming -close- to being able to have higher HPS than enfeeble/level 2 BBt bursts, due to stacked blunt reduction, is a problem?

It's also worth noting that DSB was already altered (it is now no longer affected by reduction) to address this concern, so I feel like IRE/ACC already agrees with me on this, but just haven't fixed it adequately yet for everyone else who relies on physical damage.

Nemutaur

@Ernam I'm not talking about latency, but rather an enfeeble before the targets sips rather than after. If that happens about half the enfeeble is wasted.

Ernam

Yeah that's why I mentioned pre-damage, which is used to force an earlier sip.  My testing was done with ideal sip delay.

Jovolo

How is it even possible to survive an enfeeble and full strength monk level 2 torso BBT while off sip balance? Madness!

Maybe gem still works

Nemutaur

Was possible for a runie dual wielding blunt tower shields while prone back in the day. Otherwise no clue, never seen that happen.

Ernam

Jovolo said:

How is it even possible to survive an enfeeble and full strength monk level 2 torso BBT while off sip balance? Madness!

Maybe gem still works

Jonesey tanked that in dragon with like a level 1 artie set, no TF, with me in xoran vanquisher with level 3 gauntlet, str trait, knuckles, and Jera.

all of my other tests on this were the same scenario.  They also bear the same results (if not worse) if both players are unartied. 

And yea, funny that you should mention it, I did end up killing him using gem of negation to drop dragon armor, and did the same against Carmain in Infernal - however I think this strategy should be deleted, not balanced around.

Wessux

You are a liar who provides no real evidence. 

Antonius

Every time I've tried to tank two level one torso broken BBTs with a full set of level three defensive artefacts in both Paladin (though not switching to wielding a shield) and Dragon, I've died. Not sure what it is that other people are doing that I'm not, but I'm not convinced (because I've not seen any definitive evidence) that it's possible to just sit there and straight tank that amount of damage.

Cynlael

[spoiler]You haven't seen evidence, because of what @Wessux said.[/spoiler]

Ernam

Since this has boiled down to insults, I'll find an infernal/dragon and a monk to test this (again) as soon as I have the time.

I expect an apology or at least adequate forum moderation, when I post the logs.

Austere

Ernam said:

Since this has boiled down to insults, I'll find an infernal/dragon and a monk to test this (again) as soon as I have the time.

I expect an apology or at least adequate forum moderation, when I post the logs.

Would probably be easier to "dig through forums for an hour and find them". That way, you get to shove it in all these naysayers faces.  Take that,  Ashtani scum![yes I know that it is not Ashtan this time]

Aegoth

First he needs to find someone to fabricate info with. Can't do that by diggin through forums

Trey

As unbiased as I can manage, @Ernam, when you make claims about things being over/underpowered, having the logs in place on the actual post itself would probably cut down on at least 2/3 of the "Ernam is a lying sack of shit" crowd. Even if they liked you, effective arguments are almost always backed up by examples and clearly illustrated references.

Grandue

Ernam said:

stuff

Man, your reading comprehension is terrible. I was pretty clear that I wasn't talking about people being immune to all damage. I was talking about people being immune to loljusthitf4overandover damage. Everyone else seems to understand I wasn't lumping setting up limb breaks and pulling off two lvl 2 torso BBTs into that category. 

No, I'm not saying that a knight who doesn't want to die should simply not die. No one thinks that, yet you keep bringing it up like that is the popular opinion. You need to really try to understand what people are actually saying instead of immediately jumping to the conclusion that if they aren't proposing the exact same thing you are that they must be proposing the dumbest thing possible.

I'm an artied Monk right now and I've played Runie, Shaman, Druid, Infernal, Occultist, and Serpent. I wouldn't disagree with you that monk needs to be looked at (though it isn't as terrible as you make it out to seem). 

You seem to be super concerned about combat balance between artifact players and non-artefact players to the point where you want to reduce the effectiveness of artifacts to the point where there isn't any real advantage to having them. They're still working on it, bro. Things aren't finished, they aren't stupid and I would confidently bet that they know a whole lot more shit than you or I do about combat, balance, and the gap between those with artifacts and those without. 

Yeah, if you never get artifacts you're going to be frustrated when you hit the mid-tier against other combatants who do have artifacts. You might even make it into the top-tier without artifacts but you're probably never going to be number one against another top-tier combatant who has dropped $10,000 on their toys. If you could, then artifacts would be worthless. That is the way it is, has been, and should be.

Achaea isn't a vending machine where you can just put your money in and magically become a deadly combatant, but it also isn't a gym where you can put in the same time as the guy using supplements and state-of-the-art equipment and expect to see the same results as him without also investing in the steroids and equipment.

Austere

Daeir said:

Grandue said:

Ernam said:

stuff

Achaea isn't a vending machine where you can just put your money in and magically become a deadly combatant..

It is.

I'm sorry, but that's the outright truth. You could probably sink like a grand into the game right now, buy strength and con arties, and l3 artefact weapons, roll runewarden and straight out kill most of the people in the game with very little effort. It takes a concerted and involved effort to survive that, and the person with the shit just has to tap one alias every few seconds. Achaea's model is staunchly pay-for-advantage and you're deluding yourself if you believe it to be anything otherwise.

Whether that adds value to the game or draws from it is for you to decide for yourself, but that is how things are. Please don't be disingenuous with these assertions to try and throw off Ernam's credibility.

go buy those arties and fight @Mizik‌. Let us know how that works out for you. 

Edit: actually, most top tier people will remove arties when requested.  I won't, because I paid for the "holy shit" factor and dammit I like it [shaman Loldamage],  but I have seen most of Ashtan A team remove them for fights if asked, as long as you aren't an artie whore too.

Nim

Grandue said:

but you're probably never going to be number one against another top-tier combatant who has dropped $10,000 on their toys. If you could, then artifacts would be worthless. That is the way it is, has been, and should be.

Disagree. Pay to win is dumb.

Jovolo

That doesn't really prove anything. No one said buying arties makes you the best combatant in the game, so why would you be able to beat one of (if not) the best in the game? You pay for the significant advantage, and that's what you get.

Herenicus

Nim said:

Grandue said:

but you're probably never going to be number one against another top-tier combatant who has dropped $10,000 on their toys. If you could, then artifacts would be worthless. That is the way it is, has been, and should be.

Disagree. Pay to win is dumb.

The alternatives are worse.

Nim

Yeah, it'd be pretty awful to balance artefacts so that, while they provide an advantage, they aren't decisive. That'd suck.

Herenicus

Nim said:

Yeah, it'd be pretty awful to balance artefacts so that, while they provide an advantage, they aren't decisive. That'd suck.

What you are proposing is essentially a charity model, something for nothing. Are there any MUDs where that works?

Nim

No, I'm proposing that artefacts should never provide a definite decisive advantage. Ideally, skill shouldn't make up for a lack of artefacts, but allow you to fight around your opponents' artefacts. The difference is subtle, but many artefacts already work this way; just, until the entire game is balanced around this concept, people will still feel like what @Daeir said is true.

Herenicus

I just don't see individuals throwing $579.99 on their credit card for customizations and flavour text that offers dramatically less impact than they were getting for the money, previously. I'm surprised you do.

Riashain

Please stop reminding me of the cost!! 

Nim

Maybe because I would spend hundreds of dollars on things I like, but since I hate pay to win, I wouldn't spend much at all on Achaea's pay to win things. Note, also, the number of players who buy a ton of artefacts, customized things, houses, pets, trade skills, etc. but don't enter the combat scene.

edit: this is all terribly off-topic, though. if you care to know my opinion on paid advantage balance, we could take it to PM or a different topic or something. my apologies for the derail.

Herenicus

Nim said:

Maybe because I would spend hundreds of dollars on things I like, but since I hate pay to win, I wouldn't spend much at all on Achaea's pay to win things. Note, also, the number of players who buy a ton of artefacts, customized things, houses, pets, trade skills, etc. but don't enter the combat scene.

But are your personal spending habits representative of the community? I don't think even you believe they are, which is why I am surprised you would advocate a system that would in all likelihood end with permadeath.

Ernam

Just to be clear, I am actually a big fan of Achaea's pay model, because I'm a big fan of the game itself, and the reason it works is because the balance is pretty well maintained.

At no point did I say:

Grandue said:

You seem to be super concerned about combat balance between artifact players and non-artefact players to the point where you want to reduce the effectiveness of artifacts to the point where there isn't any real advantage to having them.

...
but what I do believe is the gap should never get to the point where it's impossible to win a fight due to compounding, stacked damage mitigation, or any other mechanic.  As I mentioned earlier in the thread, damage is crucial for a long list of classes, not just monks, so increasing the DPS/reduction even more, or IMO leaving it as is, in a state that in many realistic scenarios, a matchup is either pointless or heavily disadvantaged (for no actual, necessary reason).

If someone... anyone... could please explain to me why Knights need to have the extremely high damage reduction that they have, it'd go a long way towards your argument that reducing it is not necessary.

In other words, if Knights had less damage reduction right now, could you possibly justify increasing it to what it is now?  I submit that you could not.

Tesha

@Kinilan delayed, but stuff like 104/90 didn't reduce damage by 104%/90%. It wasn't a 10% nerf to defense, probably closer to 5%, tops. Parts of damage always bypassed armor, and parts were reduced. @Sena would be able to shed better light on the matter.