Welcome to the Achaea Forums! Please be sure to read the Forum Rules.

Fast Travel in Raids

124»

Comments

  • BluefBluef DelosPosts: 2,176Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited November 2014
    Ernam said:
    Please stop focusing on how much you hate me...[lots of other stuff said here].
    Edit: Not worth it.

  • DaslinDaslin The place with the oxygenPosts: 2,492Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited November 2014
    Age old mindset. If they run, you win! Yeah, you don't get to pat yourself on the back for a new stat stats number, but it's a win. Moral victory, high-ground, all that.

    EDIT: Example, "You see how the Light allows me the strength to stand and fight while you run at the slightest sign of a negative outcome?" Tada, posturing!
  • TaelTael Posts: 1,197Member @ - Epic Achaean
    edited November 2014
    Bluef said:
    Ernam said:
    Please stop focusing on how much you hate me...[lots of other stuff said here].
    Edit: Not worth it.

    At this point, you are at least as much a part of the problem as he is.

    Edit: Good decision.
    Bluef
  • ErnamErnam Posts: 2,416Member ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    Bluef said:
    Ernam said:
    Please stop focusing on how much you hate me...[lots of other stuff said here].
    Edit: Not worth it. relevant, informed, or in all likelihood, true.


    Sorry for taking the bait, but you just kill me.  I asked you to stop posting in this thread, unless you have something that actually has to do with fast-travel.

    Everybody knows you don't like me, we don't need to be reminded by flagging/loling every post I make, or responding to it with personal garbage.

    Please.  Go.  Away.

    "Our lives are not our own. We are bound to others, past and present. And by each crime and every kindness, we birth our future."


          Manda  |  Godzilla  |  SLC
        TaelCooperBluefAustereAegoth
      1. ErnamErnam Posts: 2,416Member ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
        Daslin said:
        Age old mindset. If they run, you win! Yeah, you don't get to pat yourself on the back for a new stat stats number, but it's a win. Moral victory, high-ground, all that.


        This is typically when the puppet bleeding starts.  Hooray for Hands.

        Also, trying having this mindset when you have a contract on someone with one of these abilities.

        #you'refucked

        "Our lives are not our own. We are bound to others, past and present. And by each crime and every kindness, we birth our future."


              Manda  |  Godzilla  |  SLC
            Bluef
          1. TaelTael Posts: 1,197Member @ - Epic Achaean
            edited November 2014
            Daslin said:
            Age old mindset. If they run, you win! Yeah, you don't get to pat yourself on the back for a new stat stats number, but it's a win. Moral victory, high-ground, all that.

            EDIT: Example, "You see how the Light allows me the strength to stand and fight while you run at the slightest sign of a negative outcome?" Tada, posturing!
            Everyone should get an instant-travel ability that can't be stopped and can easily be triggered to universally avoid death. After all, if they use it to run away at the last moment, it's still a win! In fact, why even bother having death in the game at all?

            While there's something to be said for considering someone leaving to be a victory, I think this is pretty reductive. It's hard to feel like you "won" because the enemy came into the city looking to fight at range, decided there weren't enough targets, got bored, and left - or went in looking to fight at range, saw that a melee group was organizing, and then just left. And that's how a lot of raids end. It's also frustrating because it incentivizes these obnoxious multi-part raids where a group shows up, gets scared off (or just gets bored), disappears instantly, then is back ten minutes later to try again, having lost essentially nothing. The ease with which an entire raid group can instantly disappear from the city means that the decision to invade a city has almost no commitment attached to it. When instigating a raid, the only bad decision that can be made is a decision to stay, there's essentially no such thing as a bad decision when it comes to starting a raid because if things go south, you can just pull out. When planning a raid and discussing raid strategy, there is one universal contingency plan: if things look bad, leave. It's boring.

            To offer an analogy to another game which I guess I don't know whether you play, but a lot of other people in the forums seem to play, the current situation is like a game of League of Legends where every single player had an instant return-to-base button with no cooldown: without that, the game is largely about making good decisions about when to commit to a fight, with that instant-return ability, committing to a fight doesn't matter and the only kills that can ever happen are when someone foolishly stays in a fight longer than is safe. Even if the ability were stopped by crowd-control, it would still allow ranged characters to poke away at a distance before just disappearing as soon as the enemy might hit them with some CC. And that's boring. League of Legends has things that function sort of like that, and they've been universally removed or drastically limited for the very reasons I've tried to bring up. I grasp that this is not a perfect parallel and that Achaea isn't League of Legends, but the underlying principal that the aggressor should have to commit in a way that is punishable if the commitment was foolish is, I think, moderately clear.

            City conflict would be more interesting if the decision to commit to a raid had some actual weight to it the way, say, committing to a melee during a raid typically does.
            NimAchillesHerenicus
          2. ErnamErnam Posts: 2,416Member ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
            edited November 2014

            @Tael I completely agree with the raid implications here, which is the reason for suggesting changing fast-travel to have delays and/or respect hindrance.

            That said, it's exactly the same for 1v1 combat as well.  Someone running away from you isn't a "win", it's a draw, unless you're in some kind of "duel" where you agree to not use such abilities.  It's also worth noting that even in duels/arena you can use many of these to fast-travel within areas/arenas, which is still essentially a reset, particularly since you can just repeat it endlessly if your opponent manages to chase you down.

            In general, I just disagree that someone fast-traveling == victory.  There's a very simple, straight-forward mechanism for deciding who wins.  Death.  You would consider it ludicrous if contracts were completed purely because someone puppet traveled out of a 1v1 fight, would you not? - but by your logic, they should.

            Just to keep things in perspective, I am in no way suggesting that we delete them, I'm just asking that these abilities which provide instant, world-wide movement, respect movement hindering effects, since combat is balanced heavily around them.


            "Our lives are not our own. We are bound to others, past and present. And by each crime and every kindness, we birth our future."


                  Manda  |  Godzilla  |  SLC
                Bluef
              1. BluefBluef DelosPosts: 2,176Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
                edited November 2014
                All movement abilities should respect hindering effects. And almost all do. Almost all already have counters. You're just not happy with what already is a a solution. I can't explain why else every time someone tosses out a way to stop someone from fast traveling you suggest that they're wrong, ignorant, or attacking you personally (while simultaneously being so unwilling to discuss other connections to this topic like evade). 
                Nim
              2. ErnamErnam Posts: 2,416Member ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
                edited November 2014
                Bluef said:
                All movement abilities should respect hindering effects. And almost all do. Almost all already have counters. You're just not happy with what already is a a solution. I can't explain why else every time someone tosses out a way to stop someone from fast traveling you suggest that they're wrong, ignorant, or attacking you personally (while simultaneously being so unwilling to discuss other connections to this topic like evade). 

                Edited since you completely rewrote your post.

                All movement abilities do not respect hindrance.  See: Everything I listed.

                I have gone out of my way to explain in great detail how most classes cannot prevent fast travel.

                Why you refuse to actually respond to any of that information with anything other than blanket denial and intentional is blatantly beyond me (he said, sarcastically).

                "Our lives are not our own. We are bound to others, past and present. And by each crime and every kindness, we birth our future."


                      Manda  |  Godzilla  |  SLC
                    Bluef
                  1. AustereAustere TennesseePosts: 2,063Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
                    I should start a thread about how cataclysm should be an instant kill and then complain when everyone not magi disagrees.
                    BluefAzelayAegoth
                  2. KaieKaie Posts: 158Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
                    edited November 2014
                    @ernam first, I don't hate you at all. Second I did read what you said it's just not so. Most classes just have some form of hindering or another and web tattoo is available to all classes. While web might not be the best option 1v1 it can be done in raids, especially if multiple people are keeping up with it. You just might have to give up being the hero that slays them and settle for being the person that helps. Which is what raids are, teamwork.

                    As far as 1v1 goes, there's typically a way to stop them whether it's done via hindering affs, mangled limbs, forcing an action, or what ever, you just need to find a way around it. That's half the fun, finding a way to best your opponent.

                    What I took from this is, you feel that all "fast-travel" abilities need nerfed because it's allowing people to easily escape your setup. I can't say I feel any of these are any more OP than wings or earrings(even with the recent change) since all of the same things stop travel.

                    Just try harder and try adding in new things to counter them.
                  3. TaelTael Posts: 1,197Member @ - Epic Achaean
                    edited November 2014
                    Ernam said:

                    @Tael I completely agree with the raid implications here, which is the reason for suggesting changing fast-travel to have delays and/or respect hindrance.

                    That said, it's exactly the same for 1v1 combat as well.  Someone running away from you isn't a "win", it's a draw, unless you're in some kind of "duel" where you agree to not use such abilities.  It's also worth noting that even in duels/arena you can use many of these to fast-travel within areas/arenas, which is still essentially a reset, particularly since you can just repeat it endlessly if your opponent manages to chase you down.

                    In general, I just disagree that someone fast-traveling == victory.  There's a very simple, straight-forward mechanism for deciding who wins.  Death.  You would consider it ludicrous if contracts were completed purely because someone puppet traveled out of a 1v1 fight, would you not? - but by your logic, they should.

                    Just to keep things in perspective, I am in no way suggesting that we delete them, I'm just asking that these abilities which provide instant, world-wide movement, respect movement hindering effects, since combat is balanced heavily around them.


                    While I actually largely agree with you on this, I think the 1v1 debate is a debate for another day (hell, look at the title of this thread you made). It's more contentious and it significantly muddies the waters with respect to how fast-travel impacts raids.

                    The issue is that in the 1v1 discussion, there can be (and has been) substantial argument over whether the current hindrance options are good enough.

                    In the raid discussion, that's largely inconsequential. Yes, if you sleep someone, they can't raido their entire group home. But that doesn't do a whole lot of good when you're talking about whole groups sitting at range who can just immediately pull out at the first sign of danger. If your group were preternaturally coordinated, you might theoretically be able to keep most of the people from escaping once you got into melee, but that's not the issue - they can just leave before the melee even starts. And during ranged fights, you can't realistically hope to keep even a significant majority of their group so thoroughly and consistently hindered from range that they can't just decide they'd rather leave.

                    If we want to discourage ranged fights, the availability of fast travel to move entire raid groups is a huge problem. If invaders go into melee, things get interesting and there's a pretty decent potential for the fight to go badly for them (it should also be pointed out that the fight frequently ends if it goes into melee whereas ranged shit can last forever). So why do it? Why go into melee when if you stay at range, you can just immediately go back to your city with no harm done and be back to try again, having lost absolutely nothing?
                    Ernam
                  4. ErnamErnam Posts: 2,416Member ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
                    edited November 2014
                    Kaie said:
                    @ernam first, I don't hate you at all. Second I did read what you said it's just not so. Most classes just have some form of hindering or another and web tattoo is available to all classes. While web might not be the best option 1v1 it can be done in raids, especially if multiple people are keeping up with it. You just might have to give up being the hero that slays them and settle for being the person that helps. Which is what raids are, teamwork.

                    Suggesting web tattoo as a counter is terrible as a counter to fast-travel for so many reasons, not the least of which is you can't actually attack someone while you're webbing them, and in fact, webbing does nothing but allow them to cure while you bleed momentum.  For most people, in fact, web eq is slower than writhe, so if anything, you're inviting them to fast travel.   In raids, web tattoo might be useful.  If you're being raided by a purely hypothetical group of people who don't have buckawns amulets.  Also please note that things like web aren't "stackable", so the only response required to fast travel out of being webbed (assuming you don't have buckawns) is to simply wait until you writhe, then eat magnesium, stand, <fast travel>.  Things like Impale work, sure, but now we're balancing combat around 2+ vs 1 concepts, which is inherently unbalanced.

                    As far as 1v1 goes, there's typically a way to stop them whether it's done via hindering affs, mangled limbs, forcing an action, or what ever, you just need to find a way around it. That's half the fun, finding a way to best your opponent.

                    There are no hindering afflictions to any of the things I listed, other than paralysis, which is (for this reason) why it is virtually always the highest priority for curing systems.  In some cases, two broken arms do stop them, however as I have explained three times now, most classes either don't have access to the ability to double break arms, or do, but can't actually use them without sacrificing all of their momentum in combat.  See for reference:  Every class other than Monk, BM, and Knights.  Also worth mentioning that on standing arm breaks, you can simply walk away.  It is simply unreasonable to suggest that you should need a "quad break" (to stop fast travel and walking), since most classes simply don't have access to it, or can't possibly incorporate such setups into a meaningful strategy.

                    What I took from this is, you feel that all "fast-travel" abilities need nerfed because it's allowing people to easily escape your setup. I can't say I feel any of these are any more OP than wings or earrings(even with the recent change) since all of the same things stop travel.

                    Everything I listed ignores all, or almost all, forms of hindrance in the game, unlike Duanathar which respects virtually every form of hindrance.  Earrings were given a windup for exactly the reasons I'm detailing.  IMO as far as class / group combat balance is concerned, there is zero difference between abilities like old earring and things like Raido, Puppet travel, etc.  Specifically, puppet travel is identical to old earring.  With chained mushroom, so is Raido.  Universe is significantly better than both of them, and can be used by entire groups.


                    "Our lives are not our own. We are bound to others, past and present. And by each crime and every kindness, we birth our future."


                          Manda  |  Godzilla  |  SLC
                        Bluef
                      1. ErnamErnam Posts: 2,416Member ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
                        Kaie said:

                        Just try harder and try adding in new things to counter them.

                        Having a large quantity of experience with every class in the game (-alch) I am stating, clearly, and opening to feedback, that there are not things that counter them for most classes.  I await your specific examples of things that do, that do not actively disrupt/prevent meaningful 1v1 strategies, other than the ones I already mentioned (monk, BM, Knight quad breaks).

                        Blanket statements of "you're wrong, you're just not doing it right" aren't helping anyone. 

                        "Our lives are not our own. We are bound to others, past and present. And by each crime and every kindness, we birth our future."


                              Manda  |  Godzilla  |  SLC
                            Bluef
                          1. NimNim Posts: 2,015Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
                            edited November 2014
                            Bluef said:
                            All movement abilities should respect hindering effects. And almost all do. Almost all already have counters. You're just not happy with what already is a a solution. I can't explain why else every time someone tosses out a way to stop someone from fast traveling you suggest that they're wrong, ignorant, or attacking you personally (while simultaneously being so unwilling to discuss other connections to this topic like evade). 
                            Regarding the bolded: You're right. This was indicated on his first post.

                            Regarding text following the bolded: I won't defend @Ernam's strange internet disease that apparently makes him exceptionally good at making people hate him, I've been in those shoes too an awful lot when I was younger, and sometimes I think I'm still that way and I've just gotten good at hiding it, but even (especially?) I would still agree it's not very good behavior.

                            However, poking him with the same general thing ("your posts are bad, all you do with them is insult people, so you should feel bad") over and over again is just silly. He's not that non-deterministic that his response to something like that would be hard to guess, so I'm having trouble finding a reason you're doing this unless you're just trying to push his buttons until he gets banned for overreacting.

                            More on-topic: I agree fundamentally with @Ernam's issues with the game that movement is just incredibly OP and should be hard nerfed. In the past, it was noted that it's hard to nerf movement without making travel times excessively slow, but that's just an excuse.

                            For example, in some strategy games (and even some versions of D&D!), there's an idea of Zone of Control around each unit (or character) that limits or penalizes opposing units if they move too much (in some Civ games, this involves making movement more expensive, in other games it involves granting the controller a free shot).

                            That's not really a solution to any of these problems - just a basic fundamental argument that you can have cheap movement in general and still require commitment or make near-combat movement far more tactical and positional.

                            Coincidentally, within this topic, the idea that cities or alchemists could temporarily restrict fast travel within the area is definitely an implementation of a zone of control, so I like it.
                          2. JarrodJarrod Posts: 2,918Member, Seafaring Liason @@ - Legendary Achaean
                            A separate thread, either one for these abilities in 1v1, or more likely a thread for each of these abilities to discuss how to modify them individually, would be better suited for the discussion of the 1v1 nature. Something addressing each ability, to make it less powerful in 1v1 (and likely raids as a result) would be a much better focused discussion.

                            This thread too easily devolves into "this ability is fine and this is not" as well as differences between 1v1 capability vs raid capability, both in terms of effectiveness and potentially additional counters via raid effects.
                            image
                            Cascades of quicksilver light streak across the firmament as the celestial voice of Ourania intones, "Oh Jarrod..."

                            NimBluefTael
                          3. ErnamErnam Posts: 2,416Member ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
                            edited November 2014

                            I agree with that, @Jarrod, however they are kindof all the same thing, and I'd be the first to suggest doing the same thing to them that was done with earrings retroactively, and was done with the new Spiritlore fast-travel ability.

                            Give them delays, to make them 100% just as awesome for getting around while still being preventable in 1v1 combat, or have them be affected by hindrance (like Duanathar changed to respect hindrance, back when people had the exact same problem with it).

                            Totally fine with focusing on raid impact as a separate issue, however I think that these changes made on an individual basis would actually solve the group combat problem, just fine.  Notice how effective a single second delay was at "fixing" earrings (good enough to prompt a wave of class changes).

                            @Nim Appreciate the objectivity, here's my take on your comment.  I don't (personally) think that there's a problem with movement in general.  Since everyone can move at (more or less) the same speed, there's really no issue aside from the ease of which it is to speedwalk/fast travel to cities.  However, good combat is generally that which is mutually participated in, so the ability to "bail" is pretty much fine as it is, I think.

                            To briefly recap what I mentioned earlier on, combat is balanced (in part) around movement, and hindrance to slow it, based on each classes need for hindrance, and each classes need to be able to avoid it.  The reason I'm making such a big stink about fast travel (particularly abilities that are instant and ignore hindrance) is that they completely break down this balance, as they essentially complete ignore abilities designed solely to prevent things like hit-and-run prepping and repeatedly running every few seconds to neutralize various forms of momentum (be it health, mana, afflictions, bleeding, resetting limbs, etc).

                            Also, since most of these abilities are generally used to instantly travel to guard stacks and/or totems, the opponent generally does not have the ability to "chase" which is a major part of 1v1 combat.  Being able to vanish to guards, fashion up your doll on your buddy a few times, and dive back into combat whenever you choose to, is not "fair" or "balanced" but is currently standard practice for several classes (primarily occultist, jester, shaman, and potentially, runewarden).


                            The zone of control idea is really cool though, however I think it'd pretty much turn combat upside down, and would require some pretty significant changes to the game's code at fundamental levels.  I've also considered simply limiting player movement to 1-room per second within 30 seconds or something, after any aggressive action, but I never fielded the idea because honestly, it isn't needed, and would benefit/hurt certain classes far more than others.  (ie. I think it was a bad idea)

                            "Our lives are not our own. We are bound to others, past and present. And by each crime and every kindness, we birth our future."


                                  Manda  |  Godzilla  |  SLC
                              1. NimNim Posts: 2,015Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
                                Zone of control is actually a very abstract idea that is already implemented in a lot of specific ways.

                                Knights already have it with lunge and engage, for example, though there are counters to it. Monks can jumpkick and blademasters can engage, so that's some control too. Then there're the movement hindering abilities, such as gravehands or tentacles. The importance of zone of control on that level is obvious from just how powerful evade is by allowing its user to bypass most (albeit not all) of its implementations.

                                I'm the kind of person who hates specific examples, and would much rather abstract everything as much as possible, so in my mind, this entire topic is just asking for a strategy-level zone of control. In Achaea, this means an organization having control over an area rather than individual players.

                                To that end, although it's entirely true that it's possible to hinder people and prevent their escape through active, tactical-level control, that doesn't address that it's completely possible that someone can waltz into a city, snipe at a bunch of people, and then suddenly be gone before anyone can react.

                                Is that a problem? I doubt everyone thinks it is, and I think it's really hard to discuss that level of game mechanic as being necessary or not, since we wouldn't be debating the comparatively objective argument of "what would be balanced" but the much more subjective argument of "what would be more fun."

                                I think that it might not be more fun overall, but rather that it would probably shift the advantage of control in the hands of the defenders. I think that this is a good thing, because raiders already have complete control over when they raid - to give them complete control over when they stop makes it incredibly obvious to me why so many people cry victim after repeated raiding. They have no real agency over the situation.

                                This might be a good direction overall, though, because a raider still has the choice of when to raid, so the loss of control is something they can easily calculate and consider. That said, it's not some grand loss of control - it's not like they're forced to stay in the city for a half hour of combat. At worst, if they want out, they can walk into a guard stack somewhere and turn curing off. So I think the effect would be subtle, and not being a raider myself, it's next to impossible for me to accurately judge if it would be enough or even desirable to begin with.

                                Of course, I'm not actually a raider, so basically everything I said comes with plenty of salt. I'm mostly just posting this in hopes of bringing this topic back on track before it gets closed~
                                Tael
                              2. ErnamErnam Posts: 2,416Member ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
                                edited November 2014

                                Well if anything, a discussion purely related on prospective changes to ideas like this would merit its own separate discussion (ie. thread) but I wouldn't expect a lot of support, particularly on the forums (which is, demographically speaking, heavily dominated by the "raider" type player, and not the the roleplay-centric, begrudging defender type).

                                I personally wouldn't agree that it's necessary, and I think that "balanced" == "fun", in my book.  Or at least, combat == fun, and imbalances ruin combat, which means no fun, etc.

                                "Our lives are not our own. We are bound to others, past and present. And by each crime and every kindness, we birth our future."


                                      Manda  |  Godzilla  |  SLC
                                  1. JovoloJovolo EnglandPosts: 3,120Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
                                    All of the abilities listed in OP are fine and balanced. They have several things that stop each and everyone of them, and a whole bunch of ways to achieve those stopping-conditions in a group. It's harder in 1v1, sure, but if someone spammed Universe or Raido or Puppet Travel against me if I was a class with little to no way to stop it (momentum) then I just wouldn't fight them. 

                                    This is the RPS element to Achaea, and it makes Achaea diverse. Also remember that jumping someone or skirmishing someone doesn't make it a duel. Such abilities are open and fair game in the former situations. 

                                    DalranBluefOmi
                                  2. TaelTael Posts: 1,197Member @ - Epic Achaean
                                    Nim said:
                                    Zone of control is actually a very abstract idea that is already implemented in a lot of specific ways.

                                    Knights already have it with lunge and engage, for example, though there are counters to it. Monks can jumpkick and blademasters can engage, so that's some control too. Then there're the movement hindering abilities, such as gravehands or tentacles. The importance of zone of control on that level is obvious from just how powerful evade is by allowing its user to bypass most (albeit not all) of its implementations.

                                    I'm the kind of person who hates specific examples, and would much rather abstract everything as much as possible, so in my mind, this entire topic is just asking for a strategy-level zone of control. In Achaea, this means an organization having control over an area rather than individual players.

                                    To that end, although it's entirely true that it's possible to hinder people and prevent their escape through active, tactical-level control, that doesn't address that it's completely possible that someone can waltz into a city, snipe at a bunch of people, and then suddenly be gone before anyone can react.

                                    Is that a problem? I doubt everyone thinks it is, and I think it's really hard to discuss that level of game mechanic as being necessary or not, since we wouldn't be debating the comparatively objective argument of "what would be balanced" but the much more subjective argument of "what would be more fun."

                                    I think that it might not be more fun overall, but rather that it would probably shift the advantage of control in the hands of the defenders. I think that this is a good thing, because raiders already have complete control over when they raid - to give them complete control over when they stop makes it incredibly obvious to me why so many people cry victim after repeated raiding. They have no real agency over the situation.

                                    This might be a good direction overall, though, because a raider still has the choice of when to raid, so the loss of control is something they can easily calculate and consider. That said, it's not some grand loss of control - it's not like they're forced to stay in the city for a half hour of combat. At worst, if they want out, they can walk into a guard stack somewhere and turn curing off. So I think the effect would be subtle, and not being a raider myself, it's next to impossible for me to accurately judge if it would be enough or even desirable to begin with.

                                    Of course, I'm not actually a raider, so basically everything I said comes with plenty of salt. I'm mostly just posting this in hopes of bringing this topic back on track before it gets closed~
                                    You put that a lot more eloquently than I did.
                                  3. KaieKaie Posts: 158Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
                                    edited November 2014
                                    BluefErnam
                                  124»
                                  Sign In to Comment.