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Fast Travel in Raids

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  • TaelTael Posts: 1,197Member @ - Epic Achaean
    Deliver should be stopped too. As should Empress. Jarrod is certainly right about that.

    And, while I have no way of telling if that's the case, you should probably realize that specifically excluding DELIVER, which is essentially a guaranteed triggered auto-teleport in Targossas, is probably not going to make you look impartial here, even if your true motives are just.
  • ErnamErnam Posts: 2,416Member ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    edited November 2014

    On a completely different note, and accepting the fact that shrines are already kindof a hated combat mechanic, but a shrine power alternative is an option as well, which would extend the use of such concepts outside of cities (for better or worse) but would also allow raid groups to eliminate the effect by destroying the shrine.  Would of course affect everyone, not just the shrine members/enemies etc.

    Would make skirmishes a little more "king of the hill" type battles, which I'm not sure is a good thing, but just throwing it out there as a thought.

    Personally, I think Font Isolation (stops everything but deliver/empress/portal into/out of city for all players, including citizens) would be fine.

    "Our lives are not our own. We are bound to others, past and present. And by each crime and every kindness, we birth our future."


          Manda  |  Godzilla  |  SLC
      1. NimNim Posts: 2,015Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
        Off topic now that discussion got all civil, but I totally read @Ernam as being a Karkat, and can accept his strange behaviors more because of it. New project: toupper() everything he says on the forums.
        BluefTael
      2. ErnamErnam Posts: 2,416Member ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
        edited November 2014
        Tael said:
        Deliver should be stopped too. As should Empress. Jarrod is certainly right about that.

        And, while I have no way of telling if that's the case, you should probably realize that specifically excluding DELIVER, which is essentially a guaranteed triggered auto-teleport in Targossas, is probably not going to make you look impartial here, even if your true motives are just.

        I'm trying to be impartial here... Deliver and Empress are identical, and are available (in one form or another) to every organization in the game (usable by 4 classes).  As are portals.

        A method to enter/exit cities through whatever mechanism being discussed has to exist though, otherwise walking through gates would be the only option, and would give raiders a massive advantage over defending cities (ie. they control access to the entire game, we are stuck inside cities).  Anyone outside of the city when a gate raid began wouldn't even be able to join the raid defense.  

        Doesn't have to be deliver/empress, but some means has to be available.  Portals only would be fine, but would totally break down without a magi.  Would also make getting more raiders into cities relatively cumbersome.

        The key is that the abilities aren't instant, aren't self-initiated, require a 3rd party at the location you intend to go to, only move a single person at a time, and are generally only usable outside of combat, or are preventable in combat.

        "Our lives are not our own. We are bound to others, past and present. And by each crime and every kindness, we birth our future."


              Manda  |  Godzilla  |  SLC
          1. ErnamErnam Posts: 2,416Member ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
            edited November 2014
            Jarrod said:
            Deliver works on the group if you target the leader, right? (I honestly don't know, haven't touched Deliver in ages for the specifics of how it works on groups) I know Empress lets you pull the whole group through, so I assume Deliver is the same.

            The point I was making is that there will always be something else that's just as fast to do what you're trying to do. If it's get a single person out of the city, that static deliver/emp bot is worth it. Generally there is a non-com who is willing to help, or someone who can setup a trigger while they're doing something else. If it's to move a large group, then you can plan and use it on the leader of the group, or possibly just portal the whole group in.

            For clarification, Deliver does not summon a group, only the individual person.

            Just tested to be 100% sure.  Fairly certain that Empress is the same, but can't test.


            Portalling a group in/out of a city is fine, and used to be the standard method of beginning/retreating from raids back when orb of confinement was still useful (before earring networks.  See: Shallam).

            Portals have a significant delay and are stopped by monoliths either before or after the delay, on either side.  This would be totally fine for "troop movement" but wouldn't be a viable way to instantly fast-travel mid-combat, which I think is the issue needing addressed.  At a price, portals are also available to every player, and only one portaler would really be necessary for an entire raid group.

            "Our lives are not our own. We are bound to others, past and present. And by each crime and every kindness, we birth our future."


                  Manda  |  Godzilla  |  SLC
              1. JarrodJarrod Posts: 2,918Member, Seafaring Liason @@ - Legendary Achaean
                Ernam said:
                A method to enter/exit cities through whatever mechanism being discussed has to exist though, otherwise walking through gates would be the only option, and would give raiders a massive advantage over defending cities (ie. they control access to the entire game, we are stuck inside cities).  Anyone outside of the city when a gate raid began wouldn't even be able to join the raid defense.
                I assume this would be a toggle-able city defense, which would give total control to the defenders once the raiders were inside. But yes, blanket prevention of area border crossing  is a bad idea regardless how it would be implemented for cities.
                image
                Cascades of quicksilver light streak across the firmament as the celestial voice of Ourania intones, "Oh Jarrod..."

              2. ErnamErnam Posts: 2,416Member ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
                edited November 2014

                I would definitely discourage a 'toggleable' defense of this nature.  Should either have a set duration, or have a significant font use to enable, with an associated drain, to discourage/prevent such use.

                Font Isolate
                Prevent most forms of fast travel into/out of cities.  Cannot be used at the same time as other font powers (namely, weaken).

                Cost:
                10% Font power to enable.
                1% Font power per minute used.

                Alternatively, just have it as a fixed 10% drain for 10 minutes of use, cannot be disabled.

                "Our lives are not our own. We are bound to others, past and present. And by each crime and every kindness, we birth our future."


                      Manda  |  Godzilla  |  SLC
                  1. AchillesAchilles Los AngelesPosts: 2,333Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
                    Pretty sure people can follow someone who is empressed.  Deliver only delivers a single person.

                    Failed deliver cost something (devotion) while empress doesn't.  That's a pretty big difference IMO.
                    image
                  2. AddamaAddama Posts: 947Member ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
                    Failed empress costs a card, right?  That's something.
                    ~Kresslack's obsession~
                  3. ErnamErnam Posts: 2,416Member ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
                    edited November 2014

                    Targossas/Cyrene have Devotion, Eleusis has Sylvan (portals), everyone else has access to Occultist.  Everyone has access to Jester, Magi, and wand of portals.  Seems fair.  Empress pulling a group really isn't a game-breaking mechanic, but can always be addressed if need be.

                    @Addama


                    "Our lives are not our own. We are bound to others, past and present. And by each crime and every kindness, we birth our future."


                          Manda  |  Godzilla  |  SLC
                      1. AmarillysAmarillys Posts: 797Member @ - Epic Achaean
                        edited November 2014
                        Okay, I'm not going to read all this. So don't have the patience for that. Instead, I'll ask a simple question that pertains to the raido issue, I think. Why not drop a bunch of monolith sigils? Like five, maybe? I mean, it takes balance to pop them, right? And it hurts them. If they have to go through five of them, I feel like they'd be dead. Just keep a bunch of flamed mono's on you and if you see one get popped, drop another. Even if they get through two or three, there's still two or three more. It seems like your issue with this is they can pop a monolith and flee in the same move. That to me just means there's only one monolith in the room. I mean... am I wrong?



                      2. AchillesAchilles Los AngelesPosts: 2,333Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
                        Amarillys said:
                        Okay, I'm not going to read all this. So don't have the patience for that. Instead, I'll ask a simple question that pertains to the raido issue, I think. Why not drop a bunch of monolith sigils? Like five, maybe? I mean, it takes balance to pop them, right? And it hurts them. If they have to go through five of them, I feel like they'd be dead. Just keep a bunch of flamed mono's on you and if you see one get popped, drop another. Even if they get through two or three, there's still two or three more. It seems like your issue with this is they can pop a monolith and flee in the same move. That to me just means there's only one monolith in the room. I mean... am I wrong?
                        about a year ago they limited it to only one monolith in a room.  People used to drop 50+ flamed monoliths on defendable and such.
                        image
                        Amarillys
                      3. XerXer LangleyPosts: 804Member
                        That used to be the old strategy but there was a change a long time back saying that you can only put one of each type of sigil in a room, cube, knife, monolith, etc.
                        ----------------------------------------------------------------------
                        e^(iπ) + 1 = 0
                        Amarillys
                      4. AmarillysAmarillys Posts: 797Member @ - Epic Achaean
                        edited November 2014
                        See, perfectly good reason why. Thanks!

                        ETA: Note how they didn't call me a newb or tell me I'm just a dumb non-comm and instead explained rather easily, calmly, and respectfully why that is not something you can do? Three cheers for Xer and Achilles here. Solid work, chaps.



                      5. TaelTael Posts: 1,197Member @ - Epic Achaean
                        edited November 2014
                        To actually flesh out my proposal more formally, the modified DISRUPT:

                        Alchemist DISRUPT: When used, begins a channel. After one minute, all contact between the area and the outside world is cut off. Communication cannot come in our out and fast-travel abilities will not allow anyone to enter or leave the area (communication between individuals within the area remains possible, as does fast-travel between locations within the area). This effect will continue until the channel is broken and almost all action will interrupt the channel (says/tells/channel communication excluded). Alchemists cannot begin a channel while another alchemist is already disrupting an area (thus there is always at least one minute of freedom whenever the channel is broken).

                        And probably slap a PHASE-like willpower drain on maintaining it.

                        It's maybe worth pointing out that I think this was actually sort of the intention of DISRUPT originally, it's just that the disruption of communication alone is so easily circumvented in the game that it just ends up being more annoying than impactful, so no one really bothers with it.

                        (Radiance could just flat-out be removed. No great loss there I think and it's not like there isn't plenty of good stuff in telepathy. Or, if we don't want to remove it, just add some way for non-monks to meaningfully do something about it, perhaps by having to concentrate over and over to prevent dying from it as long as the monk is still trying and is able to maintain the mindlock, so it's still debilitating and useful during raids?)
                      6. ErnamErnam Posts: 2,416Member ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
                        edited November 2014

                        I personally don't think anything's wrong with Radiance, outside of the fact that it's frequently used to kill AFK people (But that's on them, and can this logic can technically be applied to any attack).

                        In general, Radiance should never actually kill anyone, ever.  It exists as a way to force movement, in both 1v1 and group combat.  Whether this be forcing someone to stop implanting, forcing someone to leave a subdivision house, forcing someone to leave a guard stack or move into LoS, etc.

                        I'd see it as a lack of a cool mechanic if it were deleted, but in the end, it isn't exactly pivotal to monk in any way, and Displace kindof fills that niche as well.

                        / derail

                        "Our lives are not our own. We are bound to others, past and present. And by each crime and every kindness, we birth our future."


                              Manda  |  Godzilla  |  SLC
                          1. StrataStrata United States of DerpPosts: 1,753Member @ - Epic Achaean
                            Austere said:
                            Edit: realized I don't care. 
                            Good idea. Join me in relaxation and dormancy while the teacher's pets of Achaea "debate" (see: make a lot of noise and hope someone with the keys to the kingdom falls for their blather) the game into nothing more than a mobile app chatroom with a checker board.
                            image
                            AustereBluef
                          2. AustereAustere TennesseePosts: 2,063Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
                            ,Strata said:
                            Austere said:
                            Edit: realized I don't care. 
                            Good idea. Join me in relaxation and dormancy while the teacher's pets of Achaea "debate" (see: make a lot of noise and hope someone with the keys to the kingdom falls for their blather) the game into nothing more than a mobile app chatroom with a checker board.
                            Actually,  I was thinking nerf the shit out of all travel so everyone goes magi. Imagine how sick cata-jhui is going to be.  All we need is someone to alt an occie/jester at battlements. 
                          3. AmarillysAmarillys Posts: 797Member @ - Epic Achaean
                            Austere said:
                              All we need is someone to alt an occie/jester at battlements. 
                            I volunteer as tribute! Long as... you know... someone gives me credits to play an alt. But yeah, I'll do it. Occie sounds interesting.




                          4. AustereAustere TennesseePosts: 2,063Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
                            Amarillys said:
                            Austere said:
                              All we need is someone to alt an occie/jester at battlements. 
                            I volunteer as tribute! Long as... you know... someone gives me credits to play an alt. But yeah, I'll do it. Occie sounds interesting.

                            Job requirements: must Afk entire days,  trigger empresses from all Ashtani raiders,  and be able to deal with the rage.  
                          5. AmarillysAmarillys Posts: 797Member @ - Epic Achaean
                            Austere said:
                            Amarillys said:
                            Austere said:
                              All we need is someone to alt an occie/jester at battlements. 
                            I volunteer as tribute! Long as... you know... someone gives me credits to play an alt. But yeah, I'll do it. Occie sounds interesting.

                            Job requirements: must Afk entire days,  trigger empresses from all Ashtani raiders,  and be able to deal with the rage.  
                            Well, I won't do the AFK part, but I can hold still and do the empress bit and deal with rage. I'll also raise a ruckus and incite further rage.



                          6. KuyKuy Posts: 1,497Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
                            I can't even stomach to read these threads anymore.

                            However, instead of just leaving a comment expressing the bad taste in my mouth, I offer two small piece of advice:

                            To all originators of similar threads:

                            In order to have a constructive argument, all parties involved must be willing to follow the rules set forth at the beginning of the argument.  This is routinely not the case for these sorts of threads.  The OP tends to request only constructive criticism with no negative tone, but only ever responds to any counter-arguments with the exact tone he or she has requested be left from the discussion.  This leads to bad tastes in the mouths of those actually posting constructive criticism, as they are talking to a brick wall that only knows how to be a jerk.

                            To all those who wish to join the discussion within similar threads:

                            If you notice that the originator of the thread has deviated from his or her requested rules of argument, treat such a thread as a poor attempt at trolling.  From here, either leave the thread because you understand nothing constructive will come of it except for possibly learning new ways to insult people on the internet, or join in the trolling and attempt to out-troll the OP.  While I get increasingly frustrated with people like @Jhui, @Dunn, and @Nemutaur when they auto-resort to trolling at inappropriate times, 9 times out 10 they're just showcasing this piece of helpful advice.

                            tl;dr: Silly threads deserve silly responses.  Learn to tell the difference at the get-go; make your forum-going life easier.

                            Alternate tl;dr: Kuy justified the actions of internet trolls.
                            [2:41:24 AM] Kenway: I bet you smell like evergreen trees and you could wrestle boreal mammals but they'd rather just cuddle you
                            JhuiBluefUlrike
                          7. DunnDunn The great Buffalo tundraPosts: 5,375Member, Secret Squirrel @@ - Legendary Achaean
                            Or don't take the game/the internet so seriously.


                            KuyAustereBluef
                          8. ErnamErnam Posts: 2,416Member ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
                            edited November 2014

                            @Kuy Props for interrupting an otherwise mature and constructive conversation with what was quite literally exactly what you are bitching about.

                            "Our lives are not our own. We are bound to others, past and present. And by each crime and every kindness, we birth our future."


                                  Manda  |  Godzilla  |  SLC
                                DalranCooperJhuiBluef
                              1. AzelayAzelay Posts: 22Member
                                edited November 2014
                                Tael said:
                                To actually flesh out my proposal more formally, the modified DISRUPT:

                                Alchemist DISRUPT: When used, begins a channel. After one minute, all contact between the area and the outside world is cut off. Communication cannot come in our out and fast-travel abilities will not allow anyone to enter or leave the area (communication between individuals within the area remains possible, as does fast-travel between locations within the area). This effect will continue until the channel is broken and almost all action will interrupt the channel (says/tells/channel communication excluded). Alchemists cannot begin a channel while another alchemist is already disrupting an area (thus there is always at least one minute of freedom whenever the channel is broken).

                                And probably slap a PHASE-like willpower drain on maintaining it.

                                It's maybe worth pointing out that I think this was actually sort of the intention of DISRUPT originally, it's just that the disruption of communication alone is so easily circumvented in the game that it just ends up being more annoying than impactful, so no one really bothers with it.

                                (Radiance could just flat-out be removed. No great loss there I think and it's not like there isn't plenty of good stuff in telepathy. Or, if we don't want to remove it, just add some way for non-monks to meaningfully do something about it, perhaps by having to concentrate over and over to prevent dying from it as long as the monk is still trying and is able to maintain the mindlock, so it's still debilitating and useful during raids?)

                                Whoa, so the Alchemist would be completely taken out of combat entirely to do this? Yeeesh. That seems pretty unnecessary and harsh.

                                It could be limited more easily by requiring more alchemists to focus disrupting together, and with a per-area cooldown (lest the ether be torn in the area). I had actually thought that the original intent for displace was something to do with cutting off Telepathy from a single room, like grove screen, huh.

                                I agree that Radiance is not very fun. To my ears, the method suggested for ending it (Alchemist displace) wouldn't work against anyone planning to radiance, they'll just stand on a monolith. The real problem with it (in my opinion) is that it is area wide, and it is easy to put yourself somewhere effectively immune to reprisals before beginning Radiance, and the enemy is forced to move a potentially long distance to avoid the kill. In many circumstances, that may be effectively impossible, especially if your class lacks any of the long-distance travel abilities (or any travel abilities at all). 
                              2. TaelTael Posts: 1,197Member @ - Epic Achaean
                                PROP TOTEM takes Runewardens out of combat entirely too. If you do anything, it breaks - just like this. And PROP TOTEM only affects a single room, not an area, so it's hardly an unreasonable cost to the Alchemist.

                                Requiring more people to do it is not a useful way to balance it. All that means is that raid groups/defender groups with more people are even more valuable than they already were.

                                The original intent of DISRUPT (what it does right now) is to cut off all communication going between the inside and outside of an area. The idea was pretty clearly to allow for the sort of strategies I was talking about (prevent people from calling for defenders, etc.), but because it's so easily circumvented (with messages or with OOC communication), I have literally never seen it used.
                              3. AddamaAddama Posts: 947Member ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
                                Tael said:
                                PROP TOTEM takes Runewardens out of combat entirely too. If you do anything, it breaks - just like this. And PROP TOTEM only affects a single room, not an area, so it's hardly an unreasonable cost to the Alchemist.
                                Except that I can immediately impale a person once they've stepped into the room and triggered my totem.
                                ~Kresslack's obsession~
                              4. CooperCooper IowaPosts: 4,098Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
                                Addama said:
                                Tael said:
                                PROP TOTEM takes Runewardens out of combat entirely too. If you do anything, it breaks - just like this. And PROP TOTEM only affects a single room, not an area, so it's hardly an unreasonable cost to the Alchemist.
                                Except that I can immediately impale a person once they've stepped into the room and triggered my totem.
                                Impale and hanged man are the solution to stopping people from leaving the room in group fights in case you wanted to know, Addama. 

                              5. KaieKaie Posts: 158Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
                                On the original topic. You could you know.. just properly setup your target rather than some gimicky kill, Ernam. Literally almost all of those you listed are stopped by limb breaks. You have the skills to do so and you speak of "unstoppable movement" yet neglect evade? Given that you also like to enjoy playing serpent alts from time to time, I'm going to call you out on just wanting an "easy mode." Get a life man. People like this are the reason this shit starts sucking. Oh please Tecton, delete every escape ability except those for the classes I play! Yeah.. ernam.. try spending this effort more constructively, like finding strategies that aren't gimicky or automatable rather than trying to convince people to change everything else so ones that are will work.
                                Nim
                              6. ErnamErnam Posts: 2,416Member ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
                                edited November 2014
                                Kaie said:
                                On the original topic. You could you know.. just properly setup your target rather than some gimicky kill, Ernam. Literally almost all of those you listed are stopped by limb breaks. You have the skills to do so and you speak of "unstoppable movement" yet neglect evade? Given that you also like to enjoy playing serpent alts from time to time, I'm going to call you out on just wanting an "easy mode." Get a life man. People like this are the reason this shit starts sucking. Oh please Tecton, delete every escape ability except those for the classes I play! Yeah.. ernam.. try spending this effort more constructively, like finding strategies that aren't gimicky or automatable rather than trying to convince people to change everything else so ones that are will work.

                                Please stop focusing on how much you hate me, and focus on reading what I actually said.

                                First of all, Evade is fine, because it isn't a fast-travel ability.  It moves a single room (and uses balance), therefore simply moving one room is sufficient to "chase".  This is completely different than abilities that let you poof back to guard stacks, instantly, from anywhere in the world, where you cannot be chased, and combat is immediately paused, to resume only when the person using the ability decides to allow it.

                                Secondly, note that I don't, and haven't for a long time, have a serpent character.  I frequently change classes on both of my character (Shecks/Ernam have been 7 classes between them in the last 3-4 months).  My ideas are never biased in favor of any classes, intentionally or otherwise, because I'm not loyal to any of them.

                                Also, to respond to the brief bit of your post that was on topic:  "Ernam. Literally almost all of those you listed are stopped by limb breaks".  

                                As I clearly explained, not all classes have ways to incorporate limb breaks into their prepping, momentum-building, or even kill sequences.  This is particularly true of affliction classes.  I would love to see how you suggest stopping Raido, Pathfinder, or Puppet Travel, at any point before a complete, total truelock is achieved, as a serpent.  Same argument could be applied for alchemist, priest, priests, bard, occultist, and so on.  Limb preps/breaks also aren't always a solution either, as most classes aren't able to keep an opponent prone for an entire kill sequence.  Basically only knights, and monks fighting against low-health targets.


                                Regarding the general tone and content of your post.  I don't even understand what you're suggesting.  I'm not suggesting an "easy mode".  I'm suggesting exactly the opposite.  Classes that are able to instantly teleport out of combat, ignoring hindrance, at virtually any time before a kill sequence is initiated, completely control who gets momentum, and how much.  At any time, if they are losing a momentum race, than can instantly reset this using fast-travel.  At any time, if they notice they have 3-4 limbs prepped, they can instantly reset this, using fast travel.  At any time, if they get BBT'd or DSB'd etc and are low enough on health to die to a follow-up attack after standing, instead of running, which can be countered, they can just fast travel.  (see: Jinsun slow-prepping Death with Pathfinder, and having people at Ramparts reset limbs in between comng back to clouds in 1v1 combat, or Vrass/Daje/Omi doing the exact same thing with puppet fashion).  All of this is the "easy mode" which is why I've been supporting making fast-travel far more preventable in 1v1 combat.

                                If you're going to respond some more, please actually try to see things more objectively, and stop keg-standing the Ernam hate kool-aid.  You have every right to have irrational hatred for anyone you like, but you don't need to bring it to class balance discussions.

                                "Our lives are not our own. We are bound to others, past and present. And by each crime and every kindness, we birth our future."


                                      Manda  |  Godzilla  |  SLC
                                    Bluef
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