Welcome to the Achaea Forums! Please be sure to read the Forum Rules.

Changes for Trans Characters

NikodemusNikodemus Buenos Aires, ArgentinaMember Posts: 21 ✭✭ - Stalwart
edited October 2014 in The Golden Dais of Creation

Ey there! (Important bolded.)


I’ve been playing for almost a year, I know it isn’t much at all in comparison to others, but I want to become more active in the forums.


Basically what I wanted to discuss is the options for people outside of the gender binary in Achaea, and trans individuals in general. Our current system is, clearly, binary, male or female, no neither, no both, permanent.


As someone that is non-binary myself this makes me slightly uncomfortable, seeing that this really great game I love does not acknowledge my identity, or other people’s. It seems like the system is quite simple: Penis means male, vagina means female.


I’m sure I’m not the only non-cis person in Achaea, and I don’t know just how complicated it’d be to add the option for gender-neutral pronouns, but the change of pronouns from he to she and viceversa does not seem too hard to achieve at all. And the matter of fact is, there is no reason why pronouns be permanent.


Sure, I can create a “female” character and RP her as having a penis, thus having a trans girl character. The permanency of gender though not only encourages the gender binary (As is the case with Satyrs and Sirens), but also discards to possibility of being genderfluid.


I can change my entire race, go from hands to paws, grow a tail, wings, scales, fur and change my body in size and appearance completely, but I can’t change my gender? I would like characters to be able to change their gender, the same way they can change anything else.


I propose a system that allows us to pick, at least, between he, she and they pronouns (They serving as the gender-neutral singular pronoun), providing Male, Female, Non-Binary options. I would also love to stop encouraging the idea that Satyrs having penises makes them “Male-only”, and Sirens having vaginas making them “Female-only”. After all, I know plenty of girls with penises, and not all my friends with vaginas are girls. Thus, all races should be able to identify as whatever they wish.


Not only do I think this would add incredible depth to many characters, and make lots of players feel less left out, but I think it'd be a huge help for trans individuals, who find it hard to accept themselves in a world where they aren't accepted. If a girl is born with a penis, and thus assigned "male", she might as well be a Satyr. Thus, saying people with penises (Satyrs, for example) can only be male, would make this girl question her identity, and probably feel like she should be ashamed of herself.


Thanks for your time!
SiduriAepasBasileiosUreelRohaiAntidas
«1

Comments

  • DaeirDaeir AustraliaMember, Secret Squirrel Posts: 5,831 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I have mixed feelings about this for reasons I can't really articulate properly.

    There are people who play trans characters in the current system with no issue (Talysin comes to mind), though. I don't really see an issue in allowing people to choose their DESCRIBE SELF pronoun I guess.
    :pleased::pleased:
    SiduriTharvisTrillianaUlrike
  • AepasAepas Member Posts: 1,619 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    To be fair I can't really think of many instances where you see yourself referred to as "he" or "She". The most common used term in messages that require referring to yourself more than once usually say "you". Other people are going to see what they see, which is "you disembowel him or her." I promise you while I am disemboweling you there is not a whole lot of political correctness going on in my head.

    I've known a few people to change their gender to fit their identity over the years, normally cause when they were younger they thought it would be fun to play as the opposite sex and then grow tired of it after 3+ years of playing and didn't want to put forth the effort into it.

    However, nothing is really expected of you. If a guy says he's a girl, then by golly, go for it. I know plenty of in game cross dressers as well which while in actuality is in a different subgroup, but whatever. Guy being a girl as much as the text game will let him be.

    Typically, people are going to respond to how you act, not what your personal pronoun is.
    Replies the scorpion: "It's my nature..."
    DaslinTeela
  • NikodemusNikodemus Buenos Aires, ArgentinaMember Posts: 21 ✭✭ - Stalwart
    Um, biology has nothing to do with gender though, which is my point. Your genitals have nothing to do with what you identify with, gender is a social construct and should not be linked to your biology.

    Biologically speaking, there is no gender binary. Here's an article that explains it fairly well: http://www.autostraddle.com/its-time-for-people-to-stop-using-the-social-construct-of-biological-sex-to-defend-their-transmisogyny-240284/

    Cross dressing does not exist to begin with, either, clothes don't have a gender. In the end, encouraging ideas like "biological sex" and "cross dressing" helps no one, not even cis people.

    I just ask for a system that supports the way I act. If my character, just like I, doesn't identify as either male or female, why should they be called something they aren't? If my Siren character identifies as a boy, why should he be constantly called "female" when that's simply not true? Cis boys and girls don't get misgendered, why should we?
  • TrillianaTrilliana Member Posts: 1,968 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I gotta agree with @Aepas. There's a kid in Cyrene that acts female, so I think of them as female even though they are a 'male' character. I know women that play male characters and vice versa. It -really- doesn't matter what gender you choose in creation, only how you act.

    Nikodemus said:


    I just ask for a system that supports the way I act. If my character, just like I, doesn't identify as either male or female, why should they be called something they aren't? If my Siren character identifies as a boy, why should he be constantly called "female" when that's simply not true? Cis boys and girls don't get misgendered, why should we?

    As for the bolded, the game already supports it. YOU are in charge of how your character is portrayed.
    meh


    TharvisSherazadCelusia
  • NikodemusNikodemus Buenos Aires, ArgentinaMember Posts: 21 ✭✭ - Stalwart
    edited October 2014
    Trilliana said:
    I gotta agree with @Aepas. There's a kid in Cyrene that acts female, so I think of them as female even though they are a 'male' character.
    Right, she's still a female though, why should she be called 'male' to begin with?

    Cis males and females appear as male and female. But trans males and females are seen as "Not really men/women", but rather "males who act feminine" or "females who act masculine".
  • TrillianaTrilliana Member Posts: 1,968 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Nikodemus said:
    Trilliana said:
    I gotta agree with @Aepas. There's a kid in Cyrene that acts female, so I think of them as female even though they are a 'male' character.
    Right, she's still a female though, why should she be called 'male' to begin with?

    Cis males and females appear as male and female. But trans males and females are seen as "Not really men/women", but rather "males who act feminine" or "females who act masculine".
    Maybe they felt like having a character that is in or has transitioned? That is how things happen. As I've said. YOU are in charge of your character. Biologically speaking though, men aren't going to get ovarian cancer, no matter what gender you feel you are.
    meh


    DaslinRohai
  • BasileiosBasileios Member Posts: 49 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited October 2014
    Hi! This is my first post on the forums, so I hope you don't mind me being a tad bad at this.  However I'd like to make a point.  It isn't really what 'other people see' so much as some Trans people actually don't feel right being labeled as things that they simply aren't.  If you read a choose your own adventure story and the pronouns always refer to you as 'you' with no physical attributes given to your body that inclines you to male,female, or variations thereupon, you will more than likely naturally assume they are the same gender as you.

    The downside to this is whenever that character that you identified with is given a gender by others in a 'canon' sense and they state that your 'canon' or mindset is completely off kilter and therefore, wrong.  This isn't to make other's 'happy', that isn't what this post is about.  It's about roleplaying options as well as that person's own happiness.  I know for a fact that some people will use the fact that the game calling you 'male' or 'female' despite what you desire as a means to rationalize their transmysoginistic views.

    Why should Trans people get the short end of the stick and not be able to use the proper pronouns they desire while cis Male and Female Achaeans get to use their proper pronouns.  It's about  level of equality and making  'safe' environment that's accepting of other genders.  Achaea has been on the forefront with things like this, allowing for gay marriage and even adoption, it's not like Bloodlines can get any worse.
    NikodemusRohai
  • NikodemusNikodemus Buenos Aires, ArgentinaMember Posts: 21 ✭✭ - Stalwart
    Daslin said:
    Long and short of it, there -are- Sirens out there who fully rp having a penis and being biologically male. There's characters out there that are of male gender, but are female.
    While I appreciate the general sentiment of your answer... But seriously though. Biologically male is not a thing. A female of male gender isn't a thing either. Penises and vaginas have nothing  to do with how you identify as. Thanks for the compliment though, I guess.

    Trilliana said:
    Biologically speaking though, men aren't going to get ovarian cancer, no matter what gender you feel you are.
    Fun fact! Lots of males out there were born with vaginas, and thus can get ovarian cancer. Many males out there have penises AND ovaries! Which means they can also get ovarian cancer.
    Basileios
  • DaslinDaslin The place with the oxygenMember Posts: 2,492 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited October 2014
    Nikodemus said:
    Daslin said:
    Long and short of it, there -are- Sirens out there who fully rp having a penis and being biologically male. There's characters out there that are of male gender, but are female.
    While I appreciate the general sentiment of your answer... But seriously though. Biologically male is not a thing. A female of male gender isn't a thing either. Penises and vaginas have nothing  to do with how you identify as. Thanks for the compliment though, I guess.


     
     In humans, biological sex is determined by five factors present at birth: the presence or absence of a Y chromosome, the type of gonads, the sex hormones, the internal reproductive anatomy (such as the uterus in females), and the external genitalia.[1] People with mixed sex factors are intersex. People whose gender identity (their internal sense of their own gender) differs from their biological sex are transgender, transsexual or genderqueer



    edits: I really should note that I'm -really- not trying to be a dick. I'm tired, and haven't had coffee, after a night of shit sleep.
    Trilliana
  • HerenicusHerenicus The Western FrontMember Posts: 1,734 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    People should be free to make up their own pronouns, to include words pronunciable only with hand-clapping or foot-stomping. Where's the harm in this?
  • JacenJacen Member Posts: 2,183 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited October 2014
    In real life, you could argue that there is no biological sex binary (I'd disagree) but this is Achaea and the rules are different here. I mean, how do I know that the character Nikodemus is a male Satyr even though I've never met him? There's a lot more than just visual stuff going on when identifying people, because Achaea is different from RL. 

    I disagree that Satyr and Siren should be opened up to the opposite sexes. They get interesting perks, its cool, its interesting.

    All that being said, I don't really see a reason not to do the 100 credit, 1 time sex change, 1000 credit, once a day sex change artefacts. Siren/Satyr limitations imposed, of course.

    Er, well the reason those artefacts wouldn't be offered is because they were already done twice as auction items. Not sure how to resolve that.
    image
    NikodemusTrillianaUlrikeCelusia
  • KlendathuKlendathu Eye of the StormMember Posts: 2,265 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    From what I understand from the OP, it's not about changing genders, but not having a gender specific pronoun assigned.

    Tharos, the Announcer of Delos shouts, "It's near the end of the egghunt and I still haven't figured out how to pronounce Clean-dat-hoo."

  • CooperCooper Member Posts: 3,792 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    This is a fantasy roleplaying game with a set world that includes many races, but only male and female sexes.

    You are free to roleplay how you would like, but I don't think the admin are going to recode and rewrite the entire game so a very small number of people feel more comfortable playing.

    That being said, this forum is not an appropriate place to have a discussion on whether your genitals define your sex or not. Nothing good will come from that.

    My suggestion to you is to roleplay the world as being male and female only. If you can't do that, try to rp in your description and emotes - but don't be obnoxious about it. If you can't do either of those things I would suggest trying a different game. 

    NikodemusTrillianaSuladanAntidasCelusia
  • NikodemusNikodemus Buenos Aires, ArgentinaMember Posts: 21 ✭✭ - Stalwart
    So... magic, dragons and teleportation are fine... But non-binary genders are unrealistic?

    It's not just about the few amunt of people who know they are trans, it's about the lots of people who don't know they are, either, because the real world (Yes, Daslin, I have been there, why d'ya think I'm so angry all the time?) is cissexist, and makes trans individuals feel like they're freaks. Of course you have a definition for "biological sex", that's because medicine is also cissexist. I'm afraid 8th grade biology doesn't cut it, though.

    "In humans, biological sex is determined by five factors present at birth: the presence or absence of a Y chromosome, the type of gonads, the sex hormones, the internal reproductive anatomy (such as the uterus in females), and the external genitalia."

    1. You can't tell what your chromosomes are unless you perform a very expensive test.
    2. Doctors can't tell what gonads you have when you're born, either.
    3. Sex hormones, seriously? I was assigned male at birth and I bet you 20 bucks there's millions of women with more testosterone than I.
    4. Genitalia, sure, let's ignore the almost 3% of intersex people out there. They're only a bit more than the entire population of France. Just an outlier, right?

  • HerenicusHerenicus The Western FrontMember Posts: 1,734 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    AodfionnUlrikeGoggo
  • DaslinDaslin The place with the oxygenMember Posts: 2,492 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited October 2014
    Okay. I'm gonna respond as well as my addled mind can let me currently, which may not be the most succinct or polite. So, please accept my apology in advance, I'll attempt to keep it nice, short and polite.

    So! We got our first point here. "So... magic, dragons and teleportation are fine... But non-binary genders are unrealistic?"
    Well, the code is a crazed amalgamation of many coders over near two decades. So... non-specific genders are likely a bitch to add in.

    Next, we have point two!
    "because the real world (Yes, Daslin, I have been there, why d'ya think I'm so angry all the time?) is cissexist, and makes trans individuals feel like they're freaks"
    I'm not really gonna touch on much of this, aside from the friends I have, and the people I've met over my years who are trans, don't think they're freaks. That's a self-esteem issue that I wish people would stop pushing on others. Keep your issues on you. Don't push them on others.

    Third point!
    "1. You can't tell what your chromosomes are unless you perform a very expensive test."
    Alright, so. Let's go back to point one! Magic, dragons and teleportation. Who's to say that an Alchemist, or even a Forestal didn't do their version of said test when the child was born, or perhaps in the trial of rebirth(now the slavery trial thing, really neat.) The badassbossman had someone do their version of said test, and that's how they know what your legitimate biological sex is?

    Fourth point.
    "2. Doctors can't tell what gonads you have when you're born, either."
    Gonna give another definition here.  
    go·nad
    ˈɡōnad/
    noun
    PHYSIOLOGYZOOLOGY
    plural noun: gonads
    an organ that produces gametes; a testis or ovary.


    Fifth point! Golly there's a lot. Stick with me, it's worth it, buddy.
    "3. Sex hormones, seriously? I was assigned male at birth and I bet you 20 bucks there's millions of women with more testosterone than I."
    Okay, on this one point, you got me boss. Thing is, you still create testosterone. Leading credence to the other two factors. Breathe now, stick with me. We're close to the end!

    Sixth point! (Or if you're juvenile like I am, SEXTH POINT!)
    "4. Genitalia, sure, let's ignore the almost 3% of intersex people out there. They're only a bit more than the entire population of France. Just an outlier, right?"

    Alright, so. We see 3% of the population are intersex. Now, we really take a look at that, compared to the entire population. This is where I -really- risk pissing people off, but; The needs of the few over the many? Is that where you're going with it? Really? Because I don't see wwhere a minority of people designate how a classification is made. Just as we don't lump ourselves in with apes, as we could, due to scientific fact of us being rather closely related, we can't change things that go for -all- of us, just to satisfy a small amount of people.


    Now, thank you for sticking with me, and bein' a sport for this tired man. You've earned a hug!
     I can't find an emoticon for a hug, so this works. *hug*


    look at me, editing all day to add in comments I forget. - For the record, I'm not upset or like, trying to put you down or anything. I'm slowly waking up and realizing that people may think I'm being that way.
    TrillianaAtalkezCelusia
  • KerriaKerria The Red LionessMember Posts: 1,120 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I'm not certain I understand why it's nessisary. The descriptions do an apt job, and it takes two seconds to correct someone if they address you incorrectly. 

    As for nouns there is he/she, him/her. I'm sorry if I offend but in confused, unless you want to include it, which seems more insulting than helpful.

    you can even get creative with poses too.

    I honestly do not understand why role playing it out is such a big deal? 

    Please se forgive me if I offend, it's not intentional, more of a symptom of my Aspergers and being unable to comprehend when there seems to be a solution already in place. :\
    TrillianaCelusia
  • BlujixapugBlujixapug Member Posts: 1,801 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Nikodemus said:
    So... magic, dragons and teleportation are fine... But non-binary genders are unrealistic?
    This will be an oversimplification, but imagine a hypothetical dwarf character who identifies as a rajamala. If you looked at them, what race would they appear as? What race would their honours list?

    I don't mean to be offensive or condescending. I'm using this metaphor to show where I view the disconnect, and the limitations of game systems and the information they can record and express. Roleplay does not share those limitations.

    Basileios said:

    Achaea has been on the forefront with things like this, allowing for gay marriage and even adoption
    Does Achaea actually allow for two parents of the same gender to adopt a person into their bloodline, together? I think Achaea fell back from that forefront a while ago.

    Lusternia takes a more active stance on such issues, and AFAIK is run by a trans person, but still uses the same pronoun system for character interaction.
    image
    TrillianaNikodemusUlrikeSherazadCelusia
  • NikodemusNikodemus Buenos Aires, ArgentinaMember Posts: 21 ✭✭ - Stalwart
    I'm going to go ahead and ignore the fact someone just used the transrace arguement on me. Implying gender is something physical just like race (Plot twist, it isn't).

    As for what @Bukariin points out I do appreciate the insight on what it'd mean code-wise, I am not familiar with that.

    I do know no one's going to .oppose. to me being whoever I want, or anyone. But there is a difference between letting people "cheat" a bit and actively offering the option. I find it sad that I have to pretend the game is not misgendering me. I find it sad that trans people have to pretend while cis people get the "canon".
  • TharvisTharvis The Land of Beer and Chocolate!Member Posts: 3,107 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    hrm, didn't @Makarios once try to nicen-up the weather system (or somebody else, I vaguely recall that admin going "I'm never doing that again" and the code being compared to fingerpaint on a cave wall) I'm going to take a wild guess and say that trying to adjust the gender system would be equally bad, if not worse, noting how many other things it's intwined in.
    Aurora says, "Tharvis, why are you always breaking things?!"
    Artemis says, "You are so high maintenance, Tharvis, gosh."
    Tecton says, "It's still your fault, Tharvis."

    Trilliana
  • JacenJacen Member Posts: 2,183 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Nikodemus said:
    I'm going to go ahead and ignore the fact someone just used the transrace arguement on me. Implying gender is something physical just like race (Plot twist, it isn't).

    As for what @Bukariin points out I do appreciate the insight on what it'd mean code-wise, I am not familiar with that.

    I do know no one's going to .oppose. to me being whoever I want, or anyone. But there is a difference between letting people "cheat" a bit and actively offering the option. I find it sad that I have to pretend the game is not misgendering me. I find it sad that trans people have to pretend while cis people get the "canon".
    I don't think anyone compared gender to race. @Blujixapug compared sex to race, which is a perfectly valid comparison. The male/female in your HONORS reflects your sex, not your gender.
    image
    SharaTrillianaSherazadNikodemusCelusia
«1
This discussion has been closed.