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New Magi Combat Mechanic

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  • AustereAustere TennesseePosts: 2,063Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited September 2014
    Question,  @Ernam‌ ;.  Just out of curiosity,  have you fought against serverside curing in full vibes yet?
  • ErnamErnam Posts: 2,416Member ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    edited September 2014
    No, however I understand the somewhat limited impact it might have.  Something to keep in mind is that client-side curing is still far "better" than server curing, assuming sub-100ms latency, against magi.

    In general, client-side curing is better in almost every way, with the massive exception of the illusion phenomenon.

    Since illusions are a nearly ignorable facet of magi combat (particularly affliction illusions), serverside doesn't should theoretically (and doesn't, in practice) make much difference against magi.

    I do look forward to round 3 (or 4?) as Magi, but I'm waiting for it to get a little more dynamic (less boring and RNG-based).

    "Our lives are not our own. We are bound to others, past and present. And by each crime and every kindness, we birth our future."


          Manda  |  Godzilla  |  SLC
      1. AustereAustere TennesseePosts: 2,063Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
        edited September 2014
        And what about amnesia eating a command and serverside instantly knowing to resend, where as client side requires guesswork?  Honestly curious,  not calling you out on anything,  but retardation definitely feels weaker against serverside.  Also, since magi is so op (just like monk) why did you roll bard instead (lolminuet)

        Edit slightly clarified,  but wouldn't monk being op make it boring too? 


        Also,  I don't personally think monk is op. Was just quoting you.  I think monk is in a very good spot right now. 
      2. ErnamErnam Posts: 2,416Member ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
        edited September 2014
        Well, for one hand, if serverside magically "knows" when you have amnesia, then its a bug (if that's even how it works).

        Two, there are several easy methods (which most systemps implement) of easily ignoring amnesia in Retardation (and all other circumstances).

        Re: Monk being OP:  I didn't say monk is OP, I said it's simple for beginners/midbies.

        Monk actually lacks the ability to kill anyone heavily artied with significant blunt reduction and/or regen, even with every offensive artefact in the game, against opponents who know what they're doing (as in, know how to count their own limbs, stay mounted, handle blackout correctly, run/tumble at the right time, use illusions/disrupts correctly, use class skills correctly, etc).

        It's also not OP, ever.  The main reason that monk is often considered OP is that artied monk vs non-artied non-monk is often a washout, because monk is so stat-dependant.  It was OP before AXK and Kai Choke got deleted/nerfed, but those days are gone.

        "Our lives are not our own. We are bound to others, past and present. And by each crime and every kindness, we birth our future."


              Manda  |  Godzilla  |  SLC
            Austere
          1. AshedAshed Posts: 8Member
            I can kill most of the playerbase flying over crowded areas dropping holobombs. (which that fellow who was raging for OOC reasons did one day, some dwarf, forget the name. Killed a couple novices in my room at crazy Hakhim's :<) Or Firelash to death dozens of people back to back. Stick transfix on some youngling that never keeps up blindness or have a system to auto-def, Trample, bam. Or hell, pull the trick that one fellow with the orphans used to pull before getting shrubbed, Retardation off the ferry, Holo stack repeatedly, wait, ???, profit. Doesn't mean I'd count as an awesome combatant.

            When it comes to balance, one must not look at new to mid tier level combatants at all. A few tricks, bombs, F1 keys...you'll most likely win. Especially since most may not appreciate just how effective afflictions really are. How a class stacks against those recognized as 'high' caliber would be what you look at...never base off superficial data of sheer numbers. Come now...

            I only consider data when it involves people worth killing. If I come up with a strategy...it's only good if it can kill those that know what they're doing, have a ton of escape methods, I know they can cure very well, actively combat/raid, etc. If it cannot...what good is it? Knowing I can trample off Transfix or frozen solid is great, but what's it gonna do me for when I cannot get either to stick against those even halfway decent? So nah, can't really count that argument as valid. Plus Torc of Telepathy isn't really all that vital to a Magi when you know...SoA, Aldar Diadem, sip rings, regen rings, fork, sash, collar, etc...all far more vital and expensive, before you get to Torc. Granted, Torc is nice both to stop instants done to you (as it's usually used for) or to hit someone with Paralysis in Retardation, but more a luxury item for new Magi. I really ought to get one myself at my characters age....but joys of being poor IRL :P

            Now, you are right that both classes are great for new players, one of the better hunters out of all classes. I just feel sorry for poor Jester noobs, that Bop is just...why? And with Staffcast damage increased on Denizens for hunting (supposedly, haven't tested but it was announced on the news boards), even better for quick leveling, adduction, harmony, flood for Grooks, reflections, etc. Great way to gain XP. Combatwise? Depends on the teacher. I've had people from other cities asking me for help in combat because their Houses only told them, and I quote, 'Just learn crystalism and you're set' So. You talk about playerbase being on that level, pretty much correct. Little to do with a classes combat capability however. Magi and Monks can dish out a lot of damage, and don't need super expensive weapons (speed or damage stats) to do it. Rarely miss as well. So of course...great in combat for new-mid :| I don't count that at all, as I've said.
          2. ErnamErnam Posts: 2,416Member ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
            The fact is, some classes are damage classes, some are affliction classes.  If you want to play a super-dynamic, theory-rich class, then don't play magi because that simply isn't what the class is.  It's designed be be simple, yet very powerful (which is a very accurate description of what it is).

            I'm all for ideas that push it in the right direction, but (at risk of repeating the same discussion 2-3 pages ago) if you're going to start dumping new affliction-based combat concepts to magi, you need to start nerfing other aspects of it to balance the class out.  I suggested re-desigining the class to be more elemental/affliction based, and nerfing/removing Retardation, but all the magi players flipped their lids (despite the fact that this would almost certainly be an upgrade, overall, in mid and top-tier combat).

            "Our lives are not our own. We are bound to others, past and present. And by each crime and every kindness, we birth our future."


                  Manda  |  Godzilla  |  SLC
              1. XithXith Posts: 2,601Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
                Aliath said:
                Nice post Ashed, sums things up nicely.
                As a sidenote personally I have always felt that if magi was really as good as some claim, more combatants would be magi, because lets face it, plenty of people out there constantly looking for the easiest way to kill people.
                Monk prepping takes a fraction more game knowledge than vibe or damage stacking does, but it's far more efficient and monks have better utility for marks and stuff.
                I like my steak like I like my Magic cards: mythic rare.
              2. JovoloJovolo EnglandPosts: 3,120Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
                Magi isn't that good at securing kills if their oppponent is defensive and smart enough to avoid sneaky tactics and use sigils appropriately. It's just that they have some of and honestly, probably the best defensive measures in the game between NoP, reflections and bloodboil, aerial through room hindrance, etc. They can absorb most all damage and afflictions you throw at them. It gets bad when they "artie out" with a collar and sash. Their dps, especially with vibes, is one of the best in the game by far. I can barely stand in a room with Mithridates as an example, for more than 5/6 seconds. Granted, I'm only level 75, but that is extreme damage output. The only thing that I've seen compare is artied warp/star, but at least that's telegraphedvand delayed before the burst.

                Magi is solid, and very well rounded. Not the best by a long shot, their defense is just insane.
                Ernam
              3. ErnamErnam Posts: 2,416Member ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
                I'm level 99, and have a level 3 defensive set, including ring of the magi and can't tank Mithridates =(.

                "Our lives are not our own. We are bound to others, past and present. And by each crime and every kindness, we birth our future."


                      Manda  |  Godzilla  |  SLC
                  1. JukilianJukilian Posts: 1,579Member @ - Epic Achaean
                    edited September 2014
                    Aegoth said:
                    Mishgul said:
                    Why would you let yourself get barged?
                    Barge isn't stopped by anything a Magi has access to but icewalls, afaik. Sometimes icewalls are detrimental to what I want (ie. being able to move freely to kill adjacent monoliths in a sigil war). Thusly, it's not too difficult for a barger to set up a situation where I need to make myself barge-able if I don't want my retardation setup to be negated by tumbling.
                    Grounding (Crystalism)                        Known: Yes
                    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                    Syntax:            EMBED GROUNDING
                                       
                                       
                    Extra Information: Shapes: Sphere
                    Works on/against:  Self
                    Details:
                    This vibration will root you to the ground, and make it difficult for you to be moved or move, 
                    provided you are not in a watery environment.
                    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                    Unless you've flooded the room, of course. Couldn't reflections stop barge? (I'm not sure).
                    Maybe fight without mass defence up and use adduction?

                    Edit: This thread has also gotten way off topic. I saw a number of posts had been made here and thought there had been a good discussion on potentail new Magi combat mechanics.
                    Yet it's everyone complaining and arguing about existing mechanics. Take it elsewhere and stick to the topic, please?
                  2. ErnamErnam Posts: 2,416Member ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
                    edited September 2014

                    @Jukilian‌ ;

                    1)  Who are you?

                    2)  You're complaining about other people complaining and derailing, which is derailing.

                    3)  Discussing the class as it stands is a key part of new combat mechanic ideas.  As has been repeatedly mentioned, if magi is going to go in a new (more interesting, dynamic) direction, the class itself is going to need overhauled, not simply augmented.  This will involve reviewing/modifying pre-existing abilities and skillsets.  Thus, nobody is "whining" about current abilities, we're doing something midbie combatants aren't typically able to do - looking at the bigger picture of the potential class, instead of single abilities on their own.

                    "Our lives are not our own. We are bound to others, past and present. And by each crime and every kindness, we birth our future."


                          Manda  |  Godzilla  |  SLC
                      1. JukilianJukilian Posts: 1,579Member @ - Epic Achaean
                        @Ernam‌ ;

                        1) Remind me again why people have such animosity towards you on the forums? Take that attitude elsewhere. I'm a Magi and this thread is in the Magi section.

                        2) Saying I expected discussion on new mechanics seemed off topic is complaining? Where did I say "whining"?

                        3) I offered some thoughts on the current train of thought. Did you miss that? If people are going to discuss new combat mechanics, I believe it would start with exactly that. Discuss new mechanics then discuss how pre-existing abilities would need to be changed to permit such a change to be possible. To me, that makes more logical sense.

                        You seem to be jumping to a lot of conclusions about me from just a paragraph or so that I typed. Again, take the attitude elsewhere.
                        PraxidesTharvisValentinus
                      2. ErnamErnam Posts: 2,416Member ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
                        @Jukilian You're really going to directly insult me, then wait for me to respond to edit it out, then ask me why I was being hostile?

                        "Our lives are not our own. We are bound to others, past and present. And by each crime and every kindness, we birth our future."


                              Manda  |  Godzilla  |  SLC
                          1. JukilianJukilian Posts: 1,579Member @ - Epic Achaean
                            Ernam said:
                            @Jukilian You're really going to directly insult me
                            Ernam said:

                            @Jukilian‌ ;

                            1)  Who are you?
                            Jukilian said:
                            @Ernam‌ ;

                            You seem to be jumping to a lot of conclusions about me from just a paragraph or so that I typed. Again, take the attitude elsewhere.
                            Now, back on topic, if we could.
                            Ernam
                          2. XithXith Posts: 2,601Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
                            Alright here's a new vibe idea.

                            Name: Resonance
                            Crystals: 3
                            Seconds: 1200

                            Function: The retardation vibration will not immediately destroy this vibration. Instead, it will reduce the remaining life of the vibration by 100 seconds.
                            * Resonance unaffected by Ring.
                            * Resonance cannot be focused
                            * Resonance cannot be spun in a room with more than 6 vibrations.
                            * Resonance will be destroyed if a 7th vibration enters the room.
                            * Resonance loses an additional 100 seconds if a Cube sigil attempts to destroy it

                            I had this idea for two reasons: response time and Alarm application.

                            Normally a Magi wants to get as many vibes spun as possible before using Retardation, because it destroys one every couple seconds. With an Aldar artefact, one vibe takes 3 seconds of EQ.
                            You're really focused on the most effective retardation vibes: lullaby, tremors, oscillate, plague, etc. These are spun last so that they are destroyed last. Many of the first vibes, even damage vibrations, will be buffers to be destroyed.

                            In this scenario, you're suddenly attacked, so you pick Reverb + your favorite 3 vibes + "Resonance" + Retardation, and spin in this order:
                            - Reverb
                            - Resonance
                            - Oscillate
                            - Tremors
                            - Lullaby
                            - Retardation

                            You have the disadvantage of fewer effects in retardation, but can enjoy them for longer because Resonance effectively fills about 11 vibration buffers. If you spin a new resonance in retardation, your other 3 (or 4) vibes will still be destroyed first.

                            Alternate formula: each retardation tick will reduce the remaining life of Resonance by (20 x V) where V is the number of vibes in the room. In this case you could spin the full 6 and lose 120 seconds each time, or spin 4 (2 functional) that last much longer:
                            - Resonance
                            - Stridulation
                            - Plague
                            - Retardation
                               1200/120 = 10 vibrations/buffers
                               1200/80 = 15 vibrations/buffers


                            Scenario #3: Alarm
                            - Resonance
                            - Alarm
                            - Retardation
                               1200/60 = 20 buffers
                               NOTE: This kind of thing would require retardation to reduce arrow effectiveness (please do that anyway).
                            I like my steak like I like my Magic cards: mythic rare.
                          3. ErnamErnam Posts: 2,416Member ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean

                            Would absolutely rather see ideas that enrich/strengthen the magi class that don't rely on massive Retardation buffs.

                            The 20xV idea is pretty neat though, but would actually be incredibly easy to abuse by re-spinning it occasionally at the right time, without additional requirements.

                            "Our lives are not our own. We are bound to others, past and present. And by each crime and every kindness, we birth our future."


                                  Manda  |  Godzilla  |  SLC
                              1. XithXith Posts: 2,601Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
                                It can't be rung and respinning it won't help unless you respin the other 3 vibes after it because it doesn't buffer vibes that come before it.
                                I like my steak like I like my Magic cards: mythic rare.
                                Ernam
                              2. DarklyreDarklyre Posts: 189Member ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
                                Random idea to replace Enchantment when tradeskills get spun off: Guild Wars-style reflections that do more than just being damage shields.

                                Have them become full-fledged dopplegangers that can activate magi skills at a distance, the way Occie dopplegangers can, for an increased EQ/mana cost, with the difference being that since magi don't have pacts, they're forced to resummon them through mana.

                                For example, let a magi remotely set vibes/staffcast/stormhammer (no holo or retardation, obviously), swap places with/move to/from the reflection, or simply spy on people with it. A magi would be able to do things like willingly sacrifice a reflection to create a lightwall, blackout everyone in the room (think CS-style flashbang explosion), or mushroom something (like, say, a monolith).

                                You could have a magi set up a reflection outside of their vibes specifically to blow up any monoliths, in order to catch people that escape retardation. Or, they can staffcast targets at range, letting them attack in ranged skirmishes without needing a cata. This would still let magi use reflections to protect themselves, but they could sacrifice that defensive boost for additional offensive capabilities.
                              3. XithXith Posts: 2,601Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
                                edited October 2014
                                I had some ideas for new elemental entities with Spellweavers, because currently you have the efreeti (ent), waterweird (ent), aerial (flying mode), and sandling (burrowing mode). I dubbed them "weavelings".

                                Waterweavling - can be ordered to freeze other class loyals temporarily
                                Earthweaveling - Has health equal to 25% of yours, absorbs 10% of the damage dealt to you until it breaks
                                Fireweaveling - functions like efreeti. defense against freeze, like caloric (1 freeze destroys it)
                                Airweaveling - allows fly. Prevents/reduces all forms of knockdown except Whirlwind of Vastar

                                EDIT: some of this was more balanced around spellweavers and not for Magi, but you get the idea.

                                Quicksandling - 5 second delay, 3 EQ, when complete all enemy adventurers are trapped underground temporarily (note that this protects them from retardation or forms of instakill, so it's primarily a defense tool or helps to isolate targets. EX: Enemy Joe and Bob, Unenemy Carl, Quicksandling, Enemy Carl. Poor Carl.
                                If no enemies present upon completion, the pool waits as a trap for a brief while. it's almost like Occie Pit used to be. Duration would have to be long enough to prevent abuse with Behead. And just delete Cleave already...
                                I like my steak like I like my Magic cards: mythic rare.
                              4. BukariinBukariin Posts: 438Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
                                I remember Occie pit



                                LumXith
                              5. JukilianJukilian Posts: 1,579Member @ - Epic Achaean
                                This is a long shot, but I think a system kinda like Lusternia with mages wouldn't be a bad idea
                                 Or think something like the Knight changes.

                                Either a) give Magi faction-based Magi skillet
                                Or b) (more likely) similar to Knight changes, allow Magi to specialize into a particular Element, each with different abilities. Could maybe move Holocaust into the Fire spec and Stormhammer into the Air(?) spec.
                                Tharvis
                              6. JukilianJukilian Posts: 1,579Member @ - Epic Achaean
                                More random thoughts:

                                Earth Magi could make and destroy stonewalls and have an equivalent of Thurisaz.
                                Fire Magi could set while rooms on fire and have maybe a meteor/fireball ability.
                                Air could have an ability that knocks all enemies down/everyone in their room, or create vacuums for asphyxiation damage or a beckon ability.
                                Water could have a freeze instant kill or throw icicles, etc.

                                Just random concept thoughts :neutral_face: 
                              7. ErnamErnam Posts: 2,416Member ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
                                edited October 2014

                                Giving magi Thurisaz is such a ridiculous concept.  Please god no.

                                The AOE prone thing is also a little crazy, using that with retardation would be god mode.

                                "Our lives are not our own. We are bound to others, past and present. And by each crime and every kindness, we birth our future."


                                      Manda  |  Godzilla  |  SLC
                                  1. XithXith Posts: 2,601Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
                                    Actually I can't remember if I actually posted it somewhere but I was playing with the idea of an earthquake spell. Delayed prone. Would make more sense to make it an active instant tremor with EQ, sort of a compliment to tremors.
                                    I like the idea more and more of forcing one of your vibe ticks -actively- because it would give you more tactical options. So you could RESOUND <vibe>. Picking stridulation for example would be an attempt to strip the deafness so you get your disrupt sooner. The damage vibes would only make sense to Resound if you did it right after the last proc to increase DPS.

                                    However Elementalism was always a little underwhelming in the options. The sucky thing about stonewalls is they're harder to cancel, so I'd suggest a variation called Earthwall. Can't be broken except by dragons and only lasts about 15 seconds. It does need more universal flavour per element.
                                    I like my steak like I like my Magic cards: mythic rare.
                                  2. JukilianJukilian Posts: 1,579Member @ - Epic Achaean
                                    Xith said:
                                    However Elementalism was always a little underwhelming in the options. The sucky thing about stonewalls is they're harder to cancel, so I'd suggest a variation called Earthwall. Can't be broken except by dragons and only lasts about 15 seconds. It does need more universal flavour per element.
                                    I disagree. As far as I'm aware, the only way to remove a stonewall is to either be a Dragon or be a runist. I don't get what you mean about stonewalls being harder to cancel... Wouldn't being able to put them up or take them down make them easier to remove? That way they can be removed if there are no dragons or runists available.

                                    Having another class able to put up and take down stone walls would be beneficial, in my opinion.
                                  3. XithXith Posts: 2,601Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
                                    The only argument against is that only runists can create "unbreakable" walls right now because everyone has a firelash ring. It would be a buff to Magi because we benefit from walls blocking arrows and keeping people from leaving the room.
                                    I like my steak like I like my Magic cards: mythic rare.
                                  4. ErnamErnam Posts: 2,416Member ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
                                    edited October 2014
                                    I would suggest that icewalls screw you over much more than they help, as a magi. (unless you have mountjump or greaves)

                                    "Our lives are not our own. We are bound to others, past and present. And by each crime and every kindness, we birth our future."


                                          Manda  |  Godzilla  |  SLC
                                        Austere
                                      1. XithXith Posts: 2,601Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
                                        I don't see how. You pretty much fight in your vibes to win. Opponents can mountjump, yes, but they'll never kill you that way either.
                                        If you don't put walls up and you drop retardation, there's the chance they'll get out and snipe you in it, which walls prevent. Which is also more relevant when you're fighting 2 or 3 people at once.
                                        I like my steak like I like my Magic cards: mythic rare.
                                      2. ErnamErnam Posts: 2,416Member ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
                                        edited November 2014
                                        @Xith

                                        95% of the time, people use tumble to get away from magi.  Icewalls don't stop tumble, but they do prevent you from chasing, making brazier your only option, and giving you zero options if they tumble onto a monolith.

                                        For magi with access to spurs+mountjump or Leap, this isn't as huge a deal, but even with that, they're still going to slow you down.

                                        "Our lives are not our own. We are bound to others, past and present. And by each crime and every kindness, we birth our future."


                                              Manda  |  Godzilla  |  SLC
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