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New Magi Combat Mechanic

AegothAegoth Posts: 2,170Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
So there's some debate about the way Magi combat works. Some feel it relies too heavily on passive afflictions, and because of this there are few avenues to go other than retard dropping in full vibes. Then I heard something about what Aetolia did to their Magi system, and I think it's pretty brilliant! Here's the scoop: 

(Party): Person says, "Duuuuude. Mages in Aetolia got a fucking sick skill."


(Party): You say, "??"


(Party): Person says, "They can STRIKE TONE <vibe>, which makes the vibration do nothing on its next tic."


(Party): Person says, "When they strike their vibe it does an effect."


(Party): Person says, "Like striking gravity will prone/stun the opponent."


(Party): You say, ":O."


(Party): Person says, "Striking crystalforest explodes the crystalforest and makes everyone in the room bleed/strip shields."


(Party): Person says, "Striking dissonance causes epilepsy."


(Party): Person says, "Etc."


(Party): Person says, "It doesnt use equ/balance."


(Party): Person says, "So you can strike a vibe/attack."


(Party): Person says, "But you dont wanna strike too many vibes cuz like."


(Party): Person says, "Since they wont do anything on their next tic."


(Party): Person says, "You are essentially removing your passive offense for one round."


(Party): You say, "Ah ok."


@Makarios pls

WeiPraxidesXith
«1345

Comments

  • HasarHasar Posts: 795Member @ - Epic Achaean

    Magi in its current incarnation is pretty reliant on RNG. (Stupidity proc, or Stridulation proc + confusion from plague, etc).

    If I can undeaf someone and get a nice RNG strid proc and even better get a nice RNG confusion proc from plague, it's GG. Right now I'm pretty much relying on stupidity to let me undeaf and/or stack afflictions so I can stop the start of new tumbles. So any sort of move towards lowering passive effects to allow for active effects would be amazing, imo.

    I made a writeup in which there were two levels of effects for most vibes, and the first level had less prerequisites and less damaging effect, 2nd level more requirements, more effect. The idea being that the first level could be aimed more at being balanced around Group fighting, and the second level more focused on 1v1. 

    Would be in favour of reducing passive effects across the board and then 'activating' the vibe could nullify the passive effect for X time or for X ticks, in exchange for giving Magi 'actives' that can be used with vibes, perhaps with requirements for a level 1 /2 effect.

    Love magi and where it is, and I don't think it's broken, but this would be a step in the right direction imo!

    tldr: Love mage, but a bit too reliant on RNG and passive effects. Lower passive effects, give us active effects in some incarnation would be fun and more skill involved.


    JhaeliTrillianaExelethrilIocun
  • AustereAustere TennesseePosts: 2,063Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I quit shaman for the easy kills.  Don't make me have to try or I will be the next Artied Ashtani monk. 

  • AlaskarAlaskar Posts: 391Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Would be awesome. Could even be in some way a third skill to replace enchantment!


  • ErnamErnam Posts: 2,416Member ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    edited August 2014

    This would obviously be a pretty massive upgrade, if implemented by itself.  Seems fine, but would need to be paired with downgrades to other aspects of combat.  Magi isn't exactly "weak" right now, it just has a lack of diversity in strategy.  I'm all for adding options to Magi combat, because I agree with your opening sentene... however the class is balanced already.  If you add 10+ new afflictions/abilities, you should shave something off other aspects of the class.  Lowering damage essentially removes one kill strategy in favor of a new one, so if anything, I'd say implement this, and get rid of/nerf retardation.  Alternatively, giving magi an offensive boost could be balanced by limiting its (fairly amazing) defensive capabilities.

    "Our lives are not our own. We are bound to others, past and present. And by each crime and every kindness, we birth our future."


          Manda  |  Godzilla  |  SLC
      1. AerekAerek East Tennessee, USAPosts: 1,813Member @@ - Legendary Achaean

        Stridulation and Lullaby are the only two I'd have real concerns over. Those would probably have to be toned down if they were made to be on-demand.

        -- Grounded in but one perspective, what we perceive is an exaggeration of the truth.
      2. AegothAegoth Posts: 2,170Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
        edited August 2014
        Ernam said:

        This would obviously be a pretty massive upgrade, if implemented by itself.  Seems fine, but would need to be paired with downgrades to other aspects of combat.  Magi isn't exactly "weak" right now, it just has a lack of diversity in strategy.  I'm all for adding options to Magi combat, because I agree with your opening sentene... however the class is balanced already.  If you add 10+ new afflictions/abilities, you should shave something off other aspects of the class.  Lowering damage essentially removes one kill strategy in favor of a new one, so if anything, I'd say implement this, and get rid of/nerf retardation.  Alternatively, giving magi an offensive boost could be balanced by limiting its (fairly amazing) defensive capabilities.

        Aside from different retardation mechanics (commands are queued instead of overwritten), Aetolia magi are pretty much the same as Achaean magi. They even have an instakill setup and other skills that make them (imo) superior to Achaea magi. So I'm not sure why you think this would make mages here out of hand. If a game like Aetolia can handle it, preeetty sure we can too. Granted, I agree with you that retardation would have to be tweaked to compensate, since this exists with different mechanics, but that's pretty much it. Further, you're forgetting that activating vibes in such a way would effectively remove their passive effect for 1 tic, which is very substantial.

      3. AlaskarAlaskar Posts: 391Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished

        Why is it always "get rid of retardation?" Retardation is unique and awesome because it's so dangerous to anyone involved in it. Also, would this really make them too OP? I mean, as is, killing people with excessive amounts of health seems pretty difficult, even if they're fully prepped and in retard. I mean, at 6k health I need like, 7 hits at a minimum with staffcast to kill them (assuming some resistances). Without a diadem, at something like 3.7 seconds of EQ each, I'd never kill them before they cure up and walk out of retard. God forbid they tumble to a monolith, there goes my entire damn offense. Granted, I'm an awful combatant, but still. Now, being able to coordinate vibes, even if it causes me to lose my next proc, would definitely open up realistic strategies.


        Of course, what do I know? Mithridates and Hasar and many of the other competent Magi seem to have no real problem killing people.


        AegothBlujixapugXith
      4. ErnamErnam Posts: 2,416Member ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
        edited August 2014

        My reason for adjusting retardation in the context of the discussion was simply because in combination with this idea, it'd be insanely overpowered.  Also, if you're going to upgrade a class that is already fine as it is you have to downgrade something else, otherwise it just becomes a superclass (monk, for instance).  Magi is already one of the best classes in the game in several areas (pvp dps, bashing dps, tanking skills, utility, LoS, and access to retardation, active AND passive curing).  While I'm all for seeing magi become a more "dynamic" combat class, you can't just add lots of (balance-free) flexible affliction capability without tweaking the rest of the class.  The proposed change isn't a bad one, it just would require the entire class to be rethought, as it would (as intended) dramatically change the way the class is used.

        Personally I think magi's insane damage mitigation and game-breaking curing capabilities (best passive curing ability in the game, coupled with bloodboil and reflections) would be a good place to start nerfing things if you're going to start giving Magi a meaningful affliction arsenal.  Something has to go.  Retardation is another decent option.

        However, @Alaskar, the reason people normally suggest deleting retardation is because frankly, it is a pretty broken mechanic for most classes, and in most cases, it turns combat into a tumble chase and/or sigil war, because fighting in retardation is simply out of the question for most classes.  It's also almost a guaranteed kill if dropped in full vibes, provided you don't escape in the 2 seconds it takes to drop.  Combine this with the fact that for people with any kind of latency, retardation is pretty much instant death.  Another reason is that retardation in group combat is pretty game-breaking.  IMO the fact that an entire raid group can be slaughtered by a single vibe being in a room makes my argument for me.  The existence of "ret traps" is yet another reason - as it's ENTIRELY too easy to just sit adjacent to retardation/frozen ground with alertness triggers, and snipe people walking by for nearly guaranteed kills.  The only counter to this is walking around with metawake up 100% of the time.

        "Our lives are not our own. We are bound to others, past and present. And by each crime and every kindness, we birth our future."


              Manda  |  Godzilla  |  SLC
            AegothTharvis
          1. ErnamErnam Posts: 2,416Member ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean


            Oh look, Aegoth disagrees.

            I forgot to mention, another reason people tend to want to see retardation go away is retardation/torc, which, if you don't also have a torc, completely breaks combat.

            "Our lives are not our own. We are bound to others, past and present. And by each crime and every kindness, we birth our future."


                  Manda  |  Godzilla  |  SLC
              1. AegothAegoth Posts: 2,170Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
                edited August 2014

                I disagree mainly because you don't really know most of what you're talking about at all. Insane damage mitigation? LoS? "game-breaking" abilities? If the class were even half as good as you describe, most of the game would go Magi. As it is, you just make yourself look foolish with all this hyperbole. How about you go artie out a Magi and see how you fare against Jhui, Hirst, Rangor, Xer, Rom, Ellodin etc.. or any combatant who actually knows what they're doing.

                Tharvis
              2. HasarHasar Posts: 795Member @ - Epic Achaean
                Right. Balancing around retardation is hard. Which is why I suggested lowering the passive effects across the board. Significant passive vibe nerfs because anyone who is decent knows that fighting 1v1 in dry retardation (just retardation) is not that bad / way more even ground. And though it wouldn't be completely without passive effects from other vibes, it would be significantly less.

                Yes, this class is fine. Yes, I like it the way it is. But it is no secret that if you want to, you can engage in a tumble /sigil war and unless I get lucky with rng to stop the start of a new tumble, you can tumble over and over or tumble once with a successful strike in the sigil war, and I have nothing.

                Which is fine to me, I think that's balanced in regards to the power of passive vibes + retardation. But, I think this is a decent solution to sigil / tumble wars, while adding some depth/skill requirement besides lolrng get rekt.

                Of course it's hard to really get thoughts about it because we haven't had any solid foundation or ideas about the exact nerfs / active effects being put it, but I think the point of the thread is to get a general feel for the possibility of nerfing passive effects of vibes -> giving us actives (possibly with requirements to help balance for group/1v1/in general).

                Retardation traps do suck, but if it's just one person, you have a chance if you react and redef insomnia then start tumbling. If it's 2 people, well...are we going to complain about every 2v1 combination to gank someone?


                ExelethrilSaeva
              3. ErnamErnam Posts: 2,416Member ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
                edited August 2014
                Aegoth said:

                I disagree mainly because you don't really know most of what you're talking about at all. Insane damage mitigation? LoS? "game-breaking" abilities? If the class were even half as good as you describe, most of the game would go Magi. As it is, you just make yourself look foolish with all this hyperbole. How about you go artie out a Magi and see how you fare against Jhui, Hirst, Rangor, Xer, Rom, Ellodin etc.. or any combatant who actually knows what they're doing.


                I have played magi, extensively, artied, on two characters - mark on both.  I am not offended by the fact that you don't seem to know this, as you're relatively new.  In fact, Ernam was a Magi for his entire in-character life, up until I got back from my last deployment a few months ago.

                However, I have gone against everyone you mentioned (excepting Rom, actually), as a Magi, and have reached the same conclusion that Hasar and yourself have reached, which is the exact reason I left the class.  So, I am not disagreeing with you about the state of the class.  Magi end-game has always been about stacking artefacts and brute damage, not excelling in "complex" affliction-based combat.  Since the Achaean combat environment seems to be changing towards something where all classes are effectively "separate but equal" in all ways combat and bashing related, I completely agree that if that's your goal, then you should change the class to be more affliction-heavy and dynamic.

                I personally don't agree with this sentiment, however.  I don't believe that all classes need to be "equal".  I think that priest having a weak offense and being incredibly powerful defensively is fine - because that defines the class.  I think that forestals being more powerful in forests than outside of them are fine, because that also defines the class.  And I think that magi's niche has always been "simple but powerful", making it an excellent class for both new people and midbies, while still being able to contribute massively for skilled and heavily-artied fighters.

                I know it's not in fashion to say that "Some classes just aren't amazing at 1v1 combat, and that's just the way it is.", but it's a fact.  Some classes are better at bashing, some classes are better at 1v1 PVP, some are better at group PVP (including Magi), and so on.  What each class specializes in should be as much a part of your class selection as any other factor.  What you shouldn't do is choose a class that "is what it is" and rant and rave about what it lacks.  If you want complex affliction-based combat, then join a class that provides that, because it isn't magi, and that's just reality.  Honestly, it'd take a complete overhaul of the class (something which has, in fact, been dicussed repeatedly), to achieve what you're truly asking for.

                Perhaps you should try serpent out, @Aegoth, you seem to be no a mission to prove your excellence, and there's no better way to do it.  We've also noticed that you're already proficient with a bow.

                "Our lives are not our own. We are bound to others, past and present. And by each crime and every kindness, we birth our future."


                      Manda  |  Godzilla  |  SLC
                    Prythe
                  1. AliathAliath Posts: 90Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
                    What LOS do magi have? Magi have two range skills as far as I recall, Cataclysm (I believe it was nerfed to a 5 room radius? Albeit easily stopped by being indoors or shielded, so hardly a game breaker 1 on 1) and Firelash which have a one room range (and which technically everyone have access to, as it is an enchantment).
                    Tharvis
                  2. AlaskarAlaskar Posts: 391Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
                    We have no LoS, unless you consider cataclysm which requires another Magi and has to be focused every time we move. Damage mitigation? I suppose we have reflections which are great, and chargeshield, as well as the skins. Other than those, all we have are resistance rings which everyone has access to. So, we get some protection vs. physical damage and electrical damage. Yay. Other classes get armor, shields, and other class skills. As for passive curing, we have...uh...the necklace? Which only works with venom-related afflictions, right? 

                    To the competent Magi out there: What do you do against people with massive amounts of health? My standard setup is to at least prep legs and head, then drop retard and break head with air, then both legs with water, then start damaging, but I can't imagine that working on someone with a certain amount of health. Should I try a weapon and venoms or save up for a torc orr...?

                  3. HasarHasar Posts: 795Member @ - Epic Achaean
                    Alaskar said:
                    We have no LoS, unless you consider cataclysm which requires another Magi and has to be focused every time we move. Damage mitigation? I suppose we have reflections which are great, and chargeshield, as well as the skins. Other than those, all we have are resistance rings which everyone has access to. So, we get some protection vs. physical damage and electrical damage. Yay. Other classes get armor, shields, and other class skills. As for passive curing, we have...uh...the necklace? Which only works with venom-related afflictions, right? 

                    To the competent Magi out there: What do you do against people with massive amounts of health? My standard setup is to at least prep legs and head, then drop retard and break head with air, then both legs with water, then start damaging, but I can't imagine that working on someone with a certain amount of health. Should I try a weapon and venoms or save up for a torc orr...?
                    Stopping tumble is pretty key. There are a few ways to do that; undeaf and then let stridulation do its thing, plus hope for plague confusion. Stupidity can help. I would recommend getting a Dagger proficiency and trans weaponry. Daggers are cheap and you only need decent accuracy and high-ish speed. Torc CAN help because it goes past rebounding and it's nice for hinder and then you can strip aura and jab, etc.

                    Basically, dagger / way to hit with venoms allows for a lot of creativity and more options.

                  4. AegothAegoth Posts: 2,170Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
                    edited August 2014
                    Alaskar said:
                    We have no LoS, unless you consider cataclysm which requires another Magi and has to be focused every time we move. Damage mitigation? I suppose we have reflections which are great, and chargeshield, as well as the skins. Other than those, all we have are resistance rings which everyone has access to. So, we get some protection vs. physical damage and electrical damage. Yay. Other classes get armor, shields, and other class skills. As for passive curing, we have...uh...the necklace? Which only works with venom-related afflictions, right? 

                    To the competent Magi out there: What do you do against people with massive amounts of health? My standard setup is to at least prep legs and head, then drop retard and break head with air, then both legs with water, then start damaging, but I can't imagine that working on someone with a certain amount of health. Should I try a weapon and venoms or save up for a torc orr...?
                    What @Hasar said. Plus you'll wan to break air, break water THEN drop ret so they don't just walk out. Frozenground helps with this too. They will usually tumble after they see you spin ret, but you'll usually have some about 2 seconds after you gain EQ back to brazier them in, so if you see that, it should be your first action. After ret drops, I'll usually jab pref first if rebounding is down, then spam break head with water while plague does its thing. Jabbing with aconite/curare helps a ton as well, and other venoms like kalmia, slike, gecko can be of assistance as well. The impact of shiver + stridulation is pretty insane, so use it to your advantage. Against -very- tanky opponents, I will usually behead them once I see strid and shivers hit, as they'll usually not be able to get a tumble off until after the 2nd message, which means they're dead.
                  5. AlaskarAlaskar Posts: 391Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
                    Does shatter work with a staff? Is it useful at all? And doesn't a proficiency cost like 1700 lessons?

                  6. AustereAustere TennesseePosts: 2,063Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
                    Proficiency is 100 lessons per weapon,  then you need shatter in weaponry
                  7. SenaSena Posts: 3,825Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
                    A proficiency costs 100 lessons. Trans weaponry is like 1700 lessons (1736).
                  8. KadenKaden Posts: 430Member ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
                    Shatter does work with a staff but the fact you can never be proficient with a staff means that with a completely healthy limb it'll take two shatters to break anything. It's not unworkable (I used to do it a lot a long time ago) but it's mostly just a cute trick, really.
                  9. XithXith Posts: 2,601Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
                    The main thing Crystalism needs is spontaneity, in that you can't keep a vibe set up all the time and if you move at all they're decaying while out of room. And your crystalism strategies tend to be a one-off.

                    Instances where you have to respin:
                    - leaving realms
                    - dying
                    - failing a retardation attack

                    And then in gank situations, where most classes can be ready to fight back as soon as they target their opponent, Magi are confined to elementalism by default, which arguably has no means of killing without crystalism. So you either:
                    - spin the 4 or 5 vibes for a damage stacking strat (plus reverb)
                    - spin enough affliction vibes (plus reverb) to last through retardation. With aldar it's 3.0 eq per vibe, so like minimum 24 seconds response time.

                    You could argue that Magi have so many defensive tools (reflect, shield, aerial, sandling, icewall, ice ground, the defunct gust, bloodboil, purity) that they are gankproof as far as dying is concerned.
                    But if they're to fight back and kill the opponent, while potentially moving from room to room, Crystalism needs a proposed fix for that.

                    The ones I've heard are:
                    • some kind of vibe rift, where a set(s) can be stored in a dimensional pocket to be called out when needed
                    • stasis vibe - prevents out-of-room decay when spun in the room (except reverb)
                    Off the top of my head:
                    • An ability in crystalism or enchanment similar to swiftcurse, greatly reducing the eq of vibe spinning for a few seconds
                    I like my steak like I like my Magic cards: mythic rare.
                  10. AegothAegoth Posts: 2,170Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
                    edited August 2014
                    Stasis for vibes was already approved two classleads ago. @Tecton said he's looking into it as soon as he is able
                  11. MakariosMakarios Posts: 1,575Administrator Achaean staff

                    Hrm, are you sure?

                    Its not in any of my lists that I can see.

                  12. AegothAegoth Posts: 2,170Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
                    Makarios said:

                    Hrm, are you sure?

                    Its not in any of my lists that I can see.

                    Had several discussions in tells and messages with him about it, and he said he would look into that classlead when he can. I'm sure that with the renaissance stuff going on, you guys have your hands quite full, but I don't think he'd just say something and not stick it it
                  13. ErnamErnam Posts: 2,416Member ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
                    A shorter time limit on retardation would fix a lot of the problems associated with it.

                    "Our lives are not our own. We are bound to others, past and present. And by each crime and every kindness, we birth our future."


                          Manda  |  Godzilla  |  SLC
                        JovoloSaevaJukilian
                      1. SenaSena Posts: 3,825Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
                        If it's the classlead I remember (from November), it was marked as approved with a note of "We'll investigate this a little."
                      2. SaevaSaeva Posts: 1,842Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
                        Yes it was an approved classlead but that is not the talks Aegoth is referring to. And magi combat is about as average as it gets unless you have thousands upon thousands of credits worth of artefacts, at which point it becomes way OP. I laugh every time I read someone gripe for magi nerfs


                        Jhaeli
                      3. XithXith Posts: 2,601Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
                        Yeah Magi is very simple, tied with Sylvan as far as complexity goes. I think it's good to have an accessible class that way, but some variation in strategy would be nice even if the tactics stayed simple.

                        I have a fair amount of arties but not maxed out on damage yet. And for being one of the damage stacking classes, it's tricky to finish off a dragon sometimes, or other tanky classes. Ideally you use holocausts to help finish the job, but people can either dodge those or try to outdamage you first. Low-level magi will find this most challenging, which I think is why an extra fire-resistance self-defense has been suggested several times for Magi.
                        I like my steak like I like my Magic cards: mythic rare.
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