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Bedevil. Is it a liability to have now?

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  • AlaskarAlaskar Posts: 391Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished

    yes.

    Constructive posts require a minimum of six quote boxes.

    Terra said:

    Daeir said:

    (did you read the thread terra)


    Yes. Did you?
    Linus said:

    In a recent fight against Eloru, Eloru forced me to put bedevil up so that I could no longer use any of my healing abilities allowing her to darkshade stack me and kill me. There is nothing I can do to prevent bedevil being forced as it's usable off balance/EQ (which I was off both when I was forced to use it) Additionally, there is no way to deactivate it once it's activated.

    Tesha said:

    Cleanest solution is to just make bedevil (defense) require equilibrium/balance to put up, so at the very least, you can defend against it the same way you defend against most force things. Another solution is making bedevil defense mimic active bedevil, but one affliction at a time every X (5?) seconds. This would make it less devastating to be forced.

    The largest problem is the fact that this transcendent ability is a larger problem for the user than it is for the target. We already have a lackluster transcendent ability in bloodsworn (maybe this will be better after next classlead season?!), letting bedevil be this much of a weakness seems kinda meh.

    Tesha said:

    To clarify, the problem isn't that bedevil makes Priest instantly die to afflictions, the problem is that it can be forced while off equilibrium/balance and has a long equilibrium of its own. It's comparable to being able to force satiation while target is off equilibrium/balance with the added effect of taking something you're used to having (tree, for example) and making it inaccessible for 60 seconds.


    Tesha said:
     

    Passive bedevil = nothing when you turn it on, but has a chance of afflicting your target with afflictions they use on you, blocks healing, and uses 3 seconds of equilibrium. 

    I did pretty well at responding to all of these comments for not reading the thread. /confused

    Do I have to use quotes more? :(




    Austere
  • LinusLinus Posts: 29Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished

    I've considered many of the posts in this and have come to the following conclusion. If passive bedevil can be forced consistently, even with care and healing, it seems I am locked fairly often by a variety of classes, from bard, serpent, apostate. This does leave me with the benefit of passive affliction reflecting, however, it cuts off my healing. Compare this to the mirror class, apostate. They have no healing but have better access to controlled afflictions which can actually help lead to a kill. As priest stands now, if the opponent is getting overwhelmed, they can stop afflicting for a bit and the priest has no way to lock or even punish someone being over afflicted aside from spiritlash. However, all of these classes are so maneuverable that priests cannot pin them down in a room long enough to punish any such mistake.


    Priest no longer has the healing ability needed to survive against affliction classes, which as many have pointed out, it's good that affliction classes now have a way to fight priests when before they were just screwed (though less so with the recent major nerfs to healing by adding balance to healing). However, I posit that before it was stand still between priest and these classes as affliction always comes with maneuverability. Now, the balance is squarely in the favor of affliction classes as priest is not able to capitalize on mistakes of the opponent in over afflicting themselves, and furthermore they cannot prevent evade/somersault in any meaningful way without losing all momentum. 


    This is a problem for a class that hardly has the ability to prep, and relies almost entirely on mana or health momentum to kill. Not only can they easily escape to kill that momentum, but attempts to prevent said escapes typically equally do the same.


    In Conclusion, Bedevil as it stands now is a liability as it changes what was a stalemate matchup into one heavily favoring the affliction classes and it does not add significantly to the offense as a priest as they lack the ability to capitalize upon what would otherwise be an interesting tradeoff ability.

    Isaiah
  • MishgulMishgul ROTHERHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMPosts: 5,305Member @@ - Legendary Achaean

    hm apostates can't force bedevil. How would they prevent you from healing that one affliction (asthma or impatience) that allows you to instantly follow up with 2-3 cures preventing a lock from happening? I can't imagine the situation hypothetically. 

    -

    One of the symptoms of an approaching nervous breakdown is the belief that one's work is terribly important

    As drawn by Shayde
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  • JarrodJarrod Posts: 2,918Member, Seafaring Liason @@ - Legendary Achaean

    Priests have two separate forms of passive healing (that don't overlap ofc) they can easily maintain all the time in a fight. This is on par with most other classes, and stronger than some (Like Occultist with no passive curing) on the defensive side. With the Healing skillset they are effectively affliction immune if played correctly, so it needs a way to be disabled.

    You are not a bad curing class when Bedevil is forced, you're an -average- healing class. It just feels bad because Priest is so far ahead of every other class in terms of curing with the Healing skillset.

    image
    Cascades of quicksilver light streak across the firmament as the celestial voice of Ourania intones, "Oh Jarrod..."

    Aegoth
  • LinusLinus Posts: 29Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished

    I am aware that bedevil cannot be forced by apostate, I have been using bedevil against various classes to gauge how much of an issue it is against different affliction classes.  This was one of three that stood out to be particularly strong against me with bedevil used.


    It is stronger than Occultist, but Occultist has the offensive ability to make up for that. Priest does not with having a poor level offense at best. This is typically made up for by the amount of defense the class has. However, when healing is taken out of the equation this does not create a balanced class, but rather a poor offense with average defense.

  • TeshaTesha Posts: 2,786Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited August 2014

    Bedevil (defense) no longer takes eq/bal, so that helps, but I think what Linus means is we can't have a difficult time hindering. So while Occultist has no passive curing, they do have hangedman and a much easier time sticking hindering affs. Most classes have some form of hindering when needed, but Priest lacks that. It's why @Mizik said he doesn't think Priest stands a mechanical chance against Occultist at the moment, and I very much agree with him. Priest needs to build momentum to shine, and against classes that can stall that momentum away by hindering etc., priest can't do that.

     i'm a rebel

  • MizikMizik Posts: 2,027Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited August 2014

    Magician is the reason - defeats the Absolve design. Priest needs a way to block it. It's their version Fitness vs locks pre-weariness for Absolve, and an oversight in Priest balancing. We'll get it.


    I snagged Torc to combat Hangedman. Lose only one round, rather than two. 

    image
  • MizikMizik Posts: 2,027Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Bedevil shouldn't cure.
    image
  • TerraTerra Posts: 676Member ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    edited August 2014

    Priest has essentially been put down to the same level as a number of other classes. Other classes can hinder. Priest can attack -while hindered-. The end result is offense vs offense, who dies first, which is basically what any momentum matchup ends with.

    You've killed me several times, @Linus, so I'm not sure why you think you have no offense. Force bedevil means nothing against apostate since apostate can't force. Bards use mana with their offense and can't stop sap, so just pressure them back-it's very difficult to keep up an offense against you while being mana pressured, and if a bard stops their offense, they lose everything, just like you do. If they somersault, they lose everything. And you only need to walk out of the room (no somersault required) to reset a bard's offense. Thoth's fang serpent is basically unstoppable right now, but that's for all non-prep classes, not just priest. Double passive healing should put priest above the others there too.

    Priest offense has been substantially buffed and is not by any means sub-par. Its defense is still better than average, just worse than "absolute immunity." Maybe there are problems vs Magician, but that wasn't even one of the problems listed.

    Piety is one of the best abilities in the game to stop running. Even against evade/somersault, you can piety multiple rooms in a row, making it take much longer to get away for long enough to heal up. You can probably also devotion force tumble cancel/disrupt at the same time? (to keep momentum while stopping somersault).

  • TeshaTesha Posts: 2,786Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Mizik said:

    Magician is the reason - defeats the Absolve design. Priest needs a way to block it. It's their version Fitness vs locks pre-weariness for Absolve, and an oversight in Priest balancing. We'll get it.


    I snagged Torc to combat Hangedman. Lose only one round, rather than two. 

    We should get some logs to pick apart sometime, I think there's more to it than magician.

     i'm a rebel

  • MizikMizik Posts: 2,027Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited August 2014
    Sure. All I know is that none of the new stuff does anything and people only die to 'dor sap'.

    Logs would help.

    image
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