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Current State of Theft

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  • RipRip Posts: 228Member ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
      Theft is fine the way it is. 

      - I have been enjoying thievery in it's lighter form, it's not over the top and then it's not so lame that you can't get something interesting at times. (Keys, letters, journals, INFAMY!)

      I have made many new friends and enemies as a result from stealing, some people have even thanked me for robbing them.  (The role play is fine and I get exactly what I want from it, more reasons to RP and PK.)

      What some of you are referring too, during the Dark/Golden Age of Achaea is..."Stripping",  meaning, we would take EVERYTHING from you.

       Stripping people so they never play Achaea again is completely wrong, those were dark times, I remember and miss them.

      Now, I believe what made this so enjoyable for the thief was the vast amount of ways you could actually rob someone.  Which years later has been narrowed down to only a few commands.  Hence, no more stripping people of all their possessions.

      Most classes these days can force an action, so most classes could for all purposes be used as a thief.  

      Which is why we now have "Pickpocketing" as a skill so everyone can't forcible rob everyone (Strip them) any longer.

      There are a few ways to get bloody in Achaea, and stealing 3 worthless shards is a great way to go about it.  Robbing someone's hard earned 10k...please.  Stealing that journal you worked 50 years on...now that is a good time.

      Stealing = Some form of RP (hopefully) = Some form of PK (hopefully)

      *I believe what is the biggest problem is the sheer failure rate of pickpocketing a specific item (It's never worked for me).  I would be happy at 33% with all things considered.

      Once you actually start stealing in the New Age of Handle With Care (Those aren't gamers, they're customers), you will find it is actually quite fun and you will find people more then willing to have some form of interaction.

    Hasar
  • StrataStrata United States of DerpPosts: 1,753Member @ - Epic Achaean

    Rip said:
    . . . Handle With Care (Those aren't gamers, they're customers), . . .

    @Nim all I'm saying here is the "Current state of theft", as this thread is aptly titled, is not bad at all and I think the rules could be relaxed some more. Stealing isn't what causes people to quit playing. They leave because the rest of us neglect those people and they learn from a few of the more outspoken toxic individuals that all injustices done to them IG can be solved with a tap of the issue button. Or they simply rage so hard they quit and never come back.

    Don't believe me? Build up a serpent and go around blatently pickpocketing (don't hide) people both big and small. Guarantee over 1/2 of the tells you get will be OOC/go f*k your mother/you're ruining this game/etc.


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    ShirszaeSuladan
  • GreysGreys Posts: 683Member, Seafaring Liason ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean

    So... Strata you are saying that you know its something that pisses off the majority of the player base as players? Doesn't that already tell you how most people then feel about theft and want it?  My experiences with thieves were that they were assholes: one time had 4 of them together and when they got a key off me were spamming ROFL as fast as they could; the other stole a journal from a friend who just came back and demanded 120 credits for it.  I so agree with the point made earlier that if it s a roleplaying tool then the amount of gold that you make and damage you can inflict on the player should be limited as it is now.

  • StrataStrata United States of DerpPosts: 1,753Member @ - Epic Achaean
    Greys said:

    So... Strata you are saying that you know its something that pisses off the majority of the player base as players? Doesn't that already tell you how most people then feel about theft and want it?  My experiences with thieves were that they were assholes: one time had 4 of them together and when they got a key off me were spamming ROFL as fast as they could; the other stole a journal from a friend who just came back and demanded 120 credits for it.  I so agree with the point made earlier that if it s a roleplaying tool then the amount of gold that you make and damage you can inflict on the player should be limited as it is now.

    I'm not saying bring back old theft. I'm saying the payouts can be increased some and it still would never be close to old theft. There's also anti-theft... which anyone above level 30 should have but doesn't always. No excuse for @Greys since he is an established figure in the realms. No excuse for his friend either who "just came back".

    This is why I mentioned earlier in this thread that I think the level should be increased from 30 to 60 so it gives more time for people to establish themselves, get more stuff worth stealing, and also learn and practice anti-theft. But it's a lose-lose situation when 90% of the player-base are alts and/or just getting powerleveled without actually getting to become immersed - then they're just thrown out to the wolves where they quit playing first time they get PK'd or stolen from. That's not the thieves' fault, it's the "mentors" and "elder players" who are just being lazy and dismissing everything with "Meh. Just issue them." 

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  • EloruEloru Posts: 7Member
    Strata said: Don't believe me? Build up a serpent and go around blatently pickpocketing (don't hide) people both big and small. Guarantee over 1/2 of the tells you get will be OOC/go f*k your mother/you're ruining this game/etc.


    Funny, I almost never get those. Usually it's just people asking what I stole or wanting back a letter or w/e.

    JovoloSaibel
  • DatriusDatrius Posts: 522Member ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    edited July 2014

    Not gonna use that kinda language here.

  • AlaskarAlaskar Posts: 393Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Strata said:
    As long as people wrongfully have the mindset that theft of any kind is a form of griefing instead of another opportunity for role-play, victims of theft will continue to bypass all forms of in-character resolution and instantly react OOCly. Yes, it sucks to have 6k gold stolen from you - especially when hiring would cost you nearly that much more. Therefore, lower level people who are victims of theft essentially have no way to get justice - and that's because instead of getting creative or having proper anti-theft measures in the first place, they decide to jump on the OOC-theft-is-griefing bandwagon to either affect more nerfs or get theft removed from the game entirely. Once theft is gone, those same people will become proponents of getting other forms of "wrongs" removed from the game - like PK. Those people are not role-playing whatsoever, they're just outright pissed off people who are playing the wrong game.

    I normally enjoy your posts, but there's an undercurrent of hypocrisy and ignorance here that's baffling. First, the first part of the bold text- I implore you to please elaborate on some of the ways a victim could get truly even. Second, you mention anti-theft measures as if when present they will completely prevent theft, which is what I thought the "problem" was in the first place. If I'm misunderstanding, please tell me, but it seems like the complaint is that it's almost impossible to steal from people now. 


    And, frankly, stealing from someone who is something around 0-10% of your might should probably be considered griefing. If I go fight someone my size that's legit. If I walk into the club and pummel the smallest guy I can find, what does that make me? 

    As for the last bit of bold text- rly? Slippery slope, weeeeeeeeee! :\


    I would like to see theft be more prevalent, but in a different way. Theft could almost certainly have a higher success rate and be made less lucrative. So that it's only possible to pickpocket small items, or small amounts of gold. I mean, how many gold sovereigns can you really grab at once, anyways?

    There could be mechanics that require you to follow or shadow a person for a set amount of time to increase your chances, a system that flags pick-pocketed items that can be retrieved on death, etc. Increased exp loss or penalty for a thief dying.



  • GreysGreys Posts: 683Member, Seafaring Liason ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean

    @Strata oh that incident was when Greys was in his 20's or 30's hardly recent.  The only thing that since was stolen from him was the journal he had as a novice logging all his impressions as a new adventurer. It probably was done when I got ripped from realms and the thief never identified himself or contacted about selling it back. Also, my friend coming back from a dormancy warranted it on his first day logging in and still setting up his systems? The only reason his journal was out was that his pack had decayed.

    Your issue is that thieves cannot sufficiently hurt a player enough for them to care but at the same time there still is nothing meaningful we can do to thieves at all. By your own admission, most players don't like it as a mode of interaction so tell me exactly why you are pushing it?

    Nim
  • JulesJules Posts: 2,169Member @ - Epic Achaean

    Because it was so effectively and staunchly defended by a certain group of players/forumers for so long, and because it really was part of the game for so long.  That group wants to get *much* closer to something like old theft, while people like me wouldn't shed a tear if it just went away completely, or was totally re-purposed for inter-org conflict (something I've always thought could make theft genuinely worthwhile).  

  • StrataStrata United States of DerpPosts: 1,753Member @ - Epic Achaean

    @Alaskar - making theft less lucrative would make it a complete waste of time for any mid-high level players. A solution for that I suppose would be a new theft system that somehow allows a thief to grab specific items (chosen randomly by the server) from inside containers or on their person. Such items would include scrolls, letters, keys not on a artie keyring, etc. If you think about it, pickpocketing is the art of going into another's pockets and lifting valuable items. Yet in Achaea, "pickpocketing" has nothing to do with pockets or purses or any sort of containers - the victim must be holding the items. Other things to help balance things out would be higher payoffs from denizen pickpocketing, as well as more denizens that are able to stolen from. Pretty much every serpent in the game pickpockets Theran guards - and many of them do not pickpocket other adventurers whatsoever because they're afraid of the possible consequences. Aside from those things, one gains infamy from pickpocketing other adventurers really quickly. Once infamous, they're open to PK. I wouldn't be opposed to the increased exp loss you speak of if it were somehow scaled with one's level of infamy. That sounds like a pretty good idea, actually.

    @Greys - Theft today is nowhere old theft, yet it seems like there are a few people whom wish to see theft removed completely. I see no difference between a nearly-unpunished thief and someone with a contract on them/holding a relic/just did something bad who sits on a guardstack/ship 24/7 or QQ's+gets on alt when certain people that are trying to kill them come around. No matter what happens to theft, there will still be many aspects of the game where supposed "victims" are powerless and can do nothing to get justice or revenge. I believe the cause of that is the OOC mindset of the player-base. It's difficult for me to explain aside from "Neener neener!"

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    Isaiah
  • JulesJules Posts: 2,169Member @ - Epic Achaean
    edited July 2014

    Something like the relics is a prime sort of target for theft as a part of inter-org conflict.  

    EDIT:  not as things stand now, but it's something that could be geared towards that.

  • GeishardGeishard Posts: 11Member

    If the idea really is to increase RPK chances, how about this: if the admins make it easier to steal from people, a mechanic is put in so that for x months per y gold value stolen, NO city guards will allow an identified thief into their city. And it doesn't matter what city the thief is from, either. So Mhaldor guards won't allow Mhaldorian or any thieves in?

    That way a theft victim has an actual ability to get revenge?

  • CahinCahin Posts: 1,246Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Strata said:
    Greys said:

    So... Strata you are saying that you know its something that pisses off the majority of the player base as players? Doesn't that already tell you how most people then feel about theft and want it?  My experiences with thieves were that they were assholes: one time had 4 of them together and when they got a key off me were spamming ROFL as fast as they could; the other stole a journal from a friend who just came back and demanded 120 credits for it.  I so agree with the point made earlier that if it s a roleplaying tool then the amount of gold that you make and damage you can inflict on the player should be limited as it is now.

    I'm not saying bring back old theft. I'm saying the payouts can be increased some and it still would never be close to old theft. There's also anti-theft... which anyone above level 30 should have but doesn't always. No excuse for @Greys since he is an established figure in the realms. No excuse for his friend either who "just came back".

    This is why I mentioned earlier in this thread that I think the level should be increased from 30 to 60 so it gives more time for people to establish themselves, get more stuff worth stealing, and also learn and practice anti-theft. But it's a lose-lose situation when 90% of the player-base are alts and/or just getting powerleveled without actually getting to become immersed - then they're just thrown out to the wolves where they quit playing first time they get PK'd or stolen from. That's not the thieves' fault, it's the "mentors" and "elder players" who are just being lazy and dismissing everything with "Meh. Just issue them." 

    @Strata

    Wanting theft to change so that payouts increase is the worst reason I can imagine for reform.  Theft should be a roleplay tool, like you stated earlier, not a viable source of income, namely because the risk does not match the reward.  Theft exists to add flavor to this roleplay environment, not as a gold farming tool, just as gleam exists to add depth to the game and not as another way to min/max.

    If you want any sort of theft reform, you're tackling it the complete wrong way. What is the source of your false entitlement? You're showing your true intentions, not for expanded roleplay mechanics and interaction, but for a more lucrative money making scheme. 



    JovoloTesha
  • StrataStrata United States of DerpPosts: 1,753Member @ - Epic Achaean

    I'm sorry none of you are capable of understanding what I'm saying. I'll chuck it up as: You're all too pampered.

    Enjoy your self-delusions of zero-risk utopian cupcake candyland Achaea. The foook was I thinking when I even opened my mouth about theft. Later, babies.

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  • JovoloJovolo EnglandPosts: 3,120Member @@ - Legendary Achaean

    Compelling

    Alcinae
  • AerekAerek East Tennessee, USAPosts: 1,813Member @@ - Legendary Achaean

    Strata just needs to make his own game. With blackjack. And hookers.

    -- Grounded in but one perspective, what we perceive is an exaggeration of the truth.
    NimStrataCorr
  • SeftinSeftin Posts: 923Member @ - Epic Achaean

    The issue with theft, and the issue that will always be with theft, is that there is no retaliation besides trying to kill a class that has a plethora of escape paths. You can't pin them down, they wont stay and fight if they don't want to, and it is up to the thiefs discression if there is really any negative to robbing from someone.


    If I steel an irreplacable item from someone, what chace do they have to get it back? practically none. I could put it in a shop stock room, put it in my pack - won't get it robbed - they could potentially kill me if they caught me, but waht does that avenge? Nothing.


    That is the issue with theft, that is why theft was changed, the level of one-sided abuse that a thief with practically no combat proficency, but the ability to run, could cause to people who have not asked for any negative interaction, was astounding. To be perfectly honest - theft should stay as it is, if not be changed to something even less useful, rather than be made any more beneficial. It was a good , strong RP point for a few people, and a lame grief tactic for many others. No one who plays Achaea now, who is a potential thief, can RP it to the levels that certain people did, I would not trust anyone in this thread to use theft responsibly. Myself included.


    tl;dr - leave theft as it is, don't buff it, one sided event.

    ShirszaeNimSaibelMathonwy
  • StrataStrata United States of DerpPosts: 1,753Member @ - Epic Achaean
    Seftin said, two years after theft was removed from Achaea:

    The issue with PK, and the issue that will always be with PK, is that there is no retaliation besides trying to kill an adventurer that is probably better than you. You can't pin them down, they wont stay and fight if they don't want to, and it is up to their discretion if there is really any negative to PKing you.


    If I PK someone, what chace do they have to get revenge? practically none. I could have a veil, stay on a ship - they could potentially kill me if they caught me, but what does that avenge? Nothing.


    That is the issue with PK, that is why PK rules were changed, the level of one-sided abuse that a PKer with practically no cupcakes, but the ability to kill, could cause to people who have not asked for any negative interaction, was astounding. To be perfectly honest - PK should stay as it is, if not be changed to something even less useful, rather than be made any more beneficial. It was a good , strong RP point for a few people, and a lame grief tactic for many others. No one who plays Achaea now, who is a potential PKer, can RP it to the levels that certain people did, I would not trust anyone in this thread to use PK responsibly. Myself included.


    tl;dr - leave PK as it is, don't buff it, one sided event.


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  • KendusKendus Posts: 12Member

    Just came back after a long break. All my stuff decayed. Caught some butterflies to buy basic stuff. In the time it takes to get to Delos, buy a pack and put it on, I've already had my remaining gold stolen and been hypnotised. There was nothing I could do about (I don't think) and no real recourse I can take (I don't think).

    Thinking of quitting again. Not looking for sympathy at all, just giving my take.

    I've been mugged thrice in real life and every one of those encounters was less lopsided than this was. Meaning I feel more powerless in the Achaea version of theft.

    Jules
  • HeroseHerose Nova Scotia, CanadaPosts: 89Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Kendus said:

    Just came back after a long break. All my stuff decayed. Caught some butterflies to buy basic stuff. In the time it takes to get to Delos, buy a pack and put it on, I've already had my remaining gold stolen and been hypnotised. There was nothing I could do about (I don't think) and no real recourse I can take (I don't think).

    Thinking of quitting again. Not looking for sympathy at all, just giving my take.

    I've been mugged thrice in real life and every one of those encounters was less lopsided than this was. Meaning I feel more powerless in the Achaea version of theft.

    I'm sorry that happened to you.   The thief probably didn't even need to hypnotize you if you didn't have selfishness up and your gold was just in your hands.  This is probably one of the worst things about theft.  People like you are the most profitable people to target but the worst people to target. 

    To be fair, the thief likely didn't know that you had just returned.  They saw an easy mark - which is rare - and acted.  And you shouldn't shoulder any blame - you had just returned with your stuff gone and was even in the process of buying a new pack.  An unfortunate situation to be sure.

    There really does need to be a mechanical system in place whereby if a character is inactive for period of 30 days or more they are granted one - three days of protection by the gods from pickpocketing.  Very similar to how those under level 30 are protected.  This would stop situations like this and not discourage previously inactive players who have decided to come back.

    IsaiahSaibelAlcinae
  • NaverreNaverre Posts: 304Member ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent

    If you've been inactive for long enough that all your stuff decayed, you should be unranked as well.

    Also if you were hypnotised, it's likely you were AFK, which while not a justification is a factor. Especially since it was apparently all your remaining gold. It's nearly impossible to lift all the gold someone has in one go, it'd take multiple pickpockets after the hypnosis.

    So I'd agree, you were more helpless than in real life: you likely weren't standing catatonic in front of your mugger.

    I'd add more but I hate doing forums on my phone. Suffice to say, either your story is not entirely truthful, or you were AFK and you really can't blame the thief or theft mechanics as a whole.

    Rip
  • JulesJules Posts: 2,169Member @ - Epic Achaean
    Pickpocket actually works very quickly.  I was totally present when someone started pickpocketing me, but I wasn't wandering about with bell and vigilance up, which seems to be "standard" now, and I didn't have the right set of triggers.  I moved (which was really all I could do at the time), but they were easily able to do two or three pickpockets in succession.  

  • JulesJules Posts: 2,169Member @ - Epic Achaean

    If I weren't a creddie whore it actually would have been pretty devastating.

  • SobriquetSobriquet Posts: 1,697Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I think the main issue, as many have said, is the feeling of loss to some people and the few ways in which they can realistically get some kind of revenge. 

    From my first 3 successful theft attempts since returning on my Naga ( and one blackmail of mudsexors while phased) I was hired on once, issued 3 times* and killed twice. The person that hired, also happened to be someone who issued. If we then to start looking at those serpents who have a veil too, there isn't really much that can be done other than hiring and hoping you get a decent Mark who also has a veil. 

    There is also the fact that easy targets, are well, easy, so the younger players are more likely to be targeted depending on how the thief really wants to play things. 


    *One issue was upheld and was an error of judgement on my part, admittedly.

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