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Current State of Theft

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  • JarrodJarrod Member, Seafaring Liason Posts: 2,914

    The only way that you could keep the good parts without the bad parts would be a really OOC seeming mechanic.

    You apply to the administration for a 'theft license'. When you get one, you get access to old action, with all its OP theft potential. At that point, whenever you steal, you submit a report with who it was and what you took. Admin could then make sure you weren't exclusively targeting new players, and any new players you targeted weren't hit too hard. If you became griefy you lost your theft license and couldn't apply for another for a long time period.

    It would have to be extremely regulated. Much simpler and reasonable to have theft the way it is now.

    image
    Cascades of quicksilver light streak across the firmament as the celestial voice of Ourania intones, "Oh Jarrod..."

    SenaNim
  • AlaskarAlaskar Member Posts: 387 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited July 2014
    Or some sort of thieves clan (not guild) in which players could enforce such things and police their own.  I hate theft,  but love the idea of player organizations like that. 


    Tohran
  • GreysGreys Member, Seafaring Liason Posts: 656 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean

    Eh, just never thought the potential for conflict was worth the cost to the game.  Reminds me of the guildhalls.  People constantly try to break into them so people stopped using them.

    Still have not seen any suggestions of what the victims could do to get back as sorry killing the thief is not a satisfying interaction.

  • NimNim Member Posts: 2,015 @@ - Legendary Achaean

    An Ankh-Morpork style thieves guild gets all of my approval.

  • AlaskarAlaskar Member Posts: 387 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished

    Could always make stolen items drop on death. And perhaps if carrying a stolen item then a higher experience penalty for player related death.  Discourages theat and let's victim get even via mark.  


    But theft should -not- be easier.  You could even make it so that there's an increased chance of success by shadowing a player for a number of rooms,  etc. 

    I like the idea of theft and people having to be creative and work to succeed.  Honestly,  if there's a minimum age to be a victim,  I'm sure a happy medium could be found.  

    Then I could open a theft-insurance business! 


  • JarrodJarrod Member, Seafaring Liason Posts: 2,914

    There is no way to regulate stolen items without extreme levels of admin oversight.

    image
    Cascades of quicksilver light streak across the firmament as the celestial voice of Ourania intones, "Oh Jarrod..."

    DaeirTohran
  • AlaskarAlaskar Member Posts: 387 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished

    I'm no coder. I just imagine the elder scrolls theft mechanics. Meh, just a thought.


  • DaeirDaeir AustraliaMember, Secret Squirrel Posts: 5,906 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    There doesn't appear to be any way of keeping theft meaningful and more than just a zero-sum game in favor of the thief at the same time. It's a shame, really.

    :pleased::pleased:
  • StrataStrata United States of DerpMember Posts: 1,753 @ - Epic Achaean

    I'm quite tired of hearing "but there will be griefers" in regard to theft. And I know some will say "but you don't know what old theft was like." -- Strata hasn't been around that long, but as a player I do remember.

    The current state of theft could be relaxed quite a bit (relaxed as in make theft easier give thieves a better pay-day) and it still wouldn't be even close to old theft.

    Let me just say this: If you're a victim of theft and you're incapable of responding to it IC but instead you have to rely on admins and say someone griefed you, there is no place for you in Achaea. You are among the ranks of the bitchasses who would be better off playing minecraft solo.

    Screw "zero-sum balancing"., @Daeir. People need to crawl out of their little "but I'll be griefed" cocoons or stop playing the fucking game entirely. It's really simple.

    image
  • DaeirDaeir AustraliaMember, Secret Squirrel Posts: 5,906 @@ - Legendary Achaean

    It's a game design paradigm that 1% of the playerbase will love, and the other 99% will hate.

    I'd love to have a more vibrant theft scene, but I'd also like for Achaea to have more than 10 people playing it, as well. Theft is just one of those things that you can't really reconcile in video games very well unless the stakes are very small. Mortal Online does it about as well as it'll ever be done, as far as I know.

    :pleased::pleased:
  • NaverreNaverre Member Posts: 304 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    The problem with that line of argument is the idea that the small amount of theft that happens in Achaea would far outweigh the enjoyable factors, rendering it unplayable. For a counterargument, take a look at EVE Online. The amount of theft, ganking, scamming, and safari-ing is insane, yet they're not lacking for players. Ask the victims, and they'll say they don't enjoy it, but that doesn't mean the rest of the game isn't worth playing.

    I highly doubt that a boost to theft, within reason, would seriously drive away 'all but 10' players.

  • DaeirDaeir AustraliaMember, Secret Squirrel Posts: 5,906 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited July 2014
    Sarapis said that something like 90% of all new players who were stolen from (or some other obscenely high number) logged out and never played again. 

    I should explain: it's not existing players that concern me. Theft in any iteration that is "prominent" is devastating to the uninitiated, especially players who are just starting to get into the game. Most thieves will prey on opportune targets - which are normally low level players. Thus, any mechanical boosts to theft adversely impact lower level players the most.

    The game dies if we do not get new people in to keep things rolling.
    :pleased::pleased:
    TohranGreysSynbios
  • StunereeStuneree Member Posts: 220 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Daeir said:
    Sarapis said that something like 90% of all new players who were stolen from (or some other obscenely high number) logged out and never played again. 

    I should explain: it's not existing players that concern me. Theft in any iteration that is "prominent" is devastating to the uninitiated, especially players who are just starting to get into the game. Most thieves will prey on opportune targets - which are normally low level players. Thus, any mechanical boosts to theft adversely impact lower level players the most.

    The game dies if we do not get new people in to keep things rolling.

    This is exactly it... There should definitely be maybe an age or level limit for theft.

    If I started off and immediately got stolen from, the FIRST thing I would think is, "Wow, this game has absolutely no administration or rules". Especially seeing as a lot of people who try games like this out don't understand open-world, they are more used to way larger games but with way more restrictions, like WoW. They probably want to feel SOMEWHAT protected while they're still learning.



  • SenaSena Member Posts: 3,757 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Theft has pretty much always been limited to level 30 and above, stealing from people lower than that is a good way to get shrubbed. The problem is that newbies can (and often do) reach level 30 long before learning about theft and how to defend against it. They're far from experienced by that point.
    AlcinaeMelodieDaeir
  • StrataStrata United States of DerpMember Posts: 1,753 @ - Epic Achaean
    Sena said:
    Theft has pretty much always been limited to level 30 and above, stealing from people lower than that is a good way to get shrubbed. The problem is that newbies can (and often do) reach level 30 long before learning about theft and how to defend against it. They're far from experienced by that point.

    Simple solution. The level 30 limit is systematically imposed. I don't think it's even possible to steal from someone level 30 or below.

    They could increase the theft payouts and then raise that level to 60. Then change the APPRAISE to say something like "You casually glance at Newissuer and realize she has very few things of value." instead of an item list. Shimmering orbs have no effect on anyone level 60 or below. This would tell any thief that they're not at least level 60 and will mechanically be unable to pickpocket them.

    If you haven't learned anti-theft and established your character enough to be able to react to being stolen from like an adult instead of crying grief, issuing, and quitting - then maybe it's time to stop power-leveling people for more raid defence fodder/group bashing scapegoats and look at where the real problem is. Someone must be telling these new folks the wrong things.

    It would be nice if the older crowd said things like "If you get stolen from, let us know and we'll go kill the thief." or "This is how you hire an assassin to kill them." or "Maybe you should try to negotiate with them and then kill them." to novices instead of "HELP ISSUE. Use this whenever someone wrongs you, you lose, or you're not having fun."

    image
    NaverreJovolo
  • AlaskarAlaskar Member Posts: 387 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    So when a dragon robs a lvl 50 or 60 character,  how should said victim respond?  They can't kill them.  It's doubtful they'll ever be in a political position that will affect the thief.  That leaves hiring.  They just lost 6k gold,  now they need to spend 5k for a chance of having the contract successfully completed. Now they're out 11K and the thief got a slap on the wrist. No thanks. 


    MathonwyAlcinae
  • JulesJules Member Posts: 2,169 @ - Epic Achaean
    edited July 2014

    Indeed, emphasis on "chance".  Here's an idea.  Have separate theft infamy and have thieves show up on "Thiefwho" or "Infamywho"   :D  And when a contract is completed on them the killer gets to loot a specified item or items from the thief's corpse/forcibly remove them from any secure stash location.  Then maybe we can talk.  I kid, but people want actual recourse with a reasonable chance of success in these situations.

  • DatriusDatrius Member Posts: 502 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    I think Datrius had a pretty awesome first experience when it came to his theft, actually. Someone stole the letter of a project he'd been working on for the Archdragon. He informed the house and in moments the Thief was up to the wazoo in Ashurans. Then @Kross (Right, Kross?), got him pinned down and intimidated the letter out of him.

    Kross
  • DaslinDaslin The place with the oxygenMember Posts: 2,492 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I miss the hell outta old theft.

  • GeishardGeishard Member Posts: 11

    The hiring argument has never actually been a good argument, in my opinion. I was here during Tenebrus' heyday and I can remember huge groups of people trying to kill him and him for the most part not even caring, because he'd either escape (which was the majority of the time, from what I could tell), or he'd die and still have the items he stole.

  • StrataStrata United States of DerpMember Posts: 1,753 @ - Epic Achaean
    As long as people wrongfully have the mindset that theft of any kind is a form of griefing instead of another opportunity for role-play, victims of theft will continue to bypass all forms of in-character resolution and instantly react OOCly. Yes, it sucks to have 6k gold stolen from you - especially when hiring would cost you nearly that much more. Therefore, lower level people who are victims of theft essentially have no way to get justice - and that's because instead of getting creative or having proper anti-theft measures in the first place, they decide to jump on the OOC-theft-is-griefing bandwagon to either affect more nerfs or get theft removed from the game entirely. Once theft is gone, those same people will become proponents of getting other forms of "wrongs" removed from the game - like PK. Those people are not role-playing whatsoever, they're just outright pissed off people who are playing the wrong game.

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  • JarrodJarrod Member, Seafaring Liason Posts: 2,914

    Theft RP is a two way street, and it's not purely on the victim to pursue more than property loss from the interaction.


    One of the Cyrenian shops I stole from, I contacted the guy afterwards and asked if he wanted to buy his stuff back, arranged a meet in a neutral location (inside Hashan), and sold him his stuff back (he brought some backup toughs to the meeting). He actually thanked me afterwards, which was odd, but I think the after interaction made it less of a terrible loss for him. For my part, selling all his stuff individually might have been a little more gold, but getting rid of it all in one shot was great.

    image
    Cascades of quicksilver light streak across the firmament as the celestial voice of Ourania intones, "Oh Jarrod..."

  • NimNim Member Posts: 2,015 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited July 2014
    Strata said:
    As long as people wrongfully have the mindset that theft of any kind is a form of griefing instead of another opportunity for role-play, victims of theft will continue to bypass all forms of in-character resolution and instantly react OOCly. Yes, it sucks to have 6k gold stolen from you - especially when hiring would cost you nearly that much more. Therefore, lower level people who are victims of theft essentially have no way to get justice - and that's because instead of getting creative or having proper anti-theft measures in the first place, they decide to jump on the OOC-theft-is-griefing bandwagon to either affect more nerfs or get theft removed from the game entirely. Once theft is gone, those same people will become proponents of getting other forms of "wrongs" removed from the game - like PK. Those people are not role-playing whatsoever, they're just outright pissed off people who are playing the wrong game.

    No, they just decide Achaea is an awful game and go play something else instead, and IRE loses a potential customer.

    Furthermore, your argument suggests that theft had an actual place in Achaea, as if Achaea were somehow hardcore.

    It also suggests that the admins nerfed it due to complaints or whining. They, according to what's been said, nerfed it after researching the matter and getting actual statistics.

    I wouldn't even respond to this, but it's getting to the point where every other thing you post is whining about other people supposedly crying hard enough to ruin the game. It's like, look in a mirror.

    ShirszaeJovolo
  • CahinCahin Member Posts: 1,246 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Strata said:
    As long as people wrongfully have the mindset that theft of any kind is a form of griefing instead of another opportunity for role-play, victims of theft will continue to bypass all forms of in-character resolution and instantly react OOCly. Yes, it sucks to have 6k gold stolen from you - especially when hiring would cost you nearly that much more. Therefore, lower level people who are victims of theft essentially have no way to get justice - and that's because instead of getting creative or having proper anti-theft measures in the first place, they decide to jump on the OOC-theft-is-griefing bandwagon to either affect more nerfs or get theft removed from the game entirely. Once theft is gone, those same people will become proponents of getting other forms of "wrongs" removed from the game - like PK. Those people are not role-playing whatsoever, they're just outright pissed off people who are playing the wrong game.

    If theft is just an outlet for roleplay, why does it need to be buffed? It is already possible to roleplay a thief.  Why does a roleplay mechanic need to be more profitable?

    Sure, you can't steal things of high value easily anymore, but why should you feel entitled to be able to do that in the first place?  I feel like people often use the guise of roleplay when arguing about theft returning to its previous form.  I agree that theft isn't griefing. Griefing is done to attempt to damage another players experience. I have a hard time believing theft is done for any other reason than personal gain. At least to the extent in which the entire playerbase could be trusted with it. Perhaps that's the pessimist in me.

    I'm all for more flavor RP for the game, but I'm equally for balanced conflict in which the risk is of the same magnitude as the reward.


    JovoloGreys
  • DaeirDaeir AustraliaMember, Secret Squirrel Posts: 5,906 @@ - Legendary Achaean

    Jarrod's got the right of it. There's no way to have a theft system that is "fair" for players without admin oversight - and removing that oversight from other things that more people will enjoy is silly.

    Piracy is about as close as we can get to an organic theft system which is balanced in engagement.

    :pleased::pleased:
  • DatriusDatrius Member Posts: 502 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    I'm kinda enjoying this thing the last few days where if I steal something personal/vital to them, I make contact in a way that allows me to remain anonymous and then  we continue to negotiate through either someone acting as a fence or a series of dead drops and secret deliveries. It's actually pretty fun.

    Rip
  • StunereeStuneree Member Posts: 220 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited July 2014
    Alaskar said:
    So when a dragon robs a lvl 50 or 60 character,  how should said victim respond?  They can't kill them.  It's doubtful they'll ever be in a political position that will affect the thief.  That leaves hiring.  They just lost 6k gold,  now they need to spend 5k for a chance of having the contract successfully completed. Now they're out 11K and the thief got a slap on the wrist. No thanks. 

    Dying in Achaea is a slap on the wrist? I consider it more of a bathroom break.



    AustereReyf
  • EloruEloru Member Posts: 7

    It's kind of messed up that the people (newbies and returning old players) who are most likely to quit over theft are the ones easiest to steal from due to lack of anti-theft triggers. Theft from a more established person is obviously more lucrative if you can get around their anti-theft, and they'll likely keep playing even if they lose 200k, while a newbie might quit over 2k gold. Maybe you could put more emphasis on picking the richer targets by increasing the chances of successful theft the more items a person is holding, while decreasing them if they are holding very little, since fewer items would be easier to keep an eye on. Or if they had less than 10k gold the max you could pickpocket at a time would be 10-20% of the total rather than 5k. And if they have like a million gold in their packs, some should fall out while you rifle through their pockets. :smiley: 

    Suladan
  • JovoloJovolo EnglandMember Posts: 3,102 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Wasn't one of the main reasons theft was changed due to how innately one-sided the conflict is, and how the onus is entirely on the serpent to actually utilise any roleplay potential and/or negotiate a return of the item? A momentary lapse due to perhaps being logged in without anti-theft, disconnected, or just a simple mistake could leave someone down hundreds of thousands of gold, or without their one-of-a-kind personal items of very high sentimental value, etcetera. It was at all opt-in either, with everyone being fair game to any serpent at any time as soon as they hit level thirty. This created a host of problems with many people just quitting the game altogether.

    So, what changed?

    Theft is in a lucrative and reasonable position for both parties right now. 

    Mathonwy
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