The Big Ship Thread

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Comments

  • Katharos said:
    Guess I'll do something else then. Bye everyone.
    You shouldn't let the vitriol of a select few prevent you from enjoying something. Forums is also a terrible place to ever go. You should probably leave forums but consider playing still. This place is horrible.
  • Jules said:
    I think if we even had a few crews out beating on the pirates, we might be having a completely different conversation.  I actually think we could easily end up talking about restraint and not killing piracy entirely.  

    I say that because I think we have far more people at any given moment, and access to enough armed Striders to make the seas a living hell for pirates who are far better warriors than we'd probably ever be, but who would simply be incredibly outmanned and outgunned.  I think we could pretty much lock down Tasur'ke and Thraasi, if we were really serious about it - like say, when a Mayan Crown deal came out, Mariner's and Co. could blockade the ports.  

    I realize how pie in the sky it sounds, but I think it's something we might be able to get away with, because ship combat doesn't even seem to be remotely as complicated as land combat - with that all-important caveat that you prevent that force-boarding by combatants who are hands down better than our guys are going to be at any "real" combat.  

    I hope we at least give it a *real* try before we ask for such sweeping changes to sailing rules.  I am totally with you on my feelings about pirates, and being sunk in general,   
    Please please please please do this please. You DO have more people. You CANcan cover more water with more eyes on the lookout. You CAN convoy trade ships when the good deals show up. Don't be an asshole and blockade though. PoM doesn't even do that. And you don't want to see what happens after an Ashtan ship gets delayed...

     Yes the pirates dominate the seas. They roam unchecked. The only person that ever fights back is Artanis and it should be pointed out that because of that he gets the respect of the PoM. He's been let off the hook a bunch of times because it's better for everyone that he can keep fighting. He's an odd duck but everyone in the PoM loves to see him around because he doesn't just bitch and moan.


    If you can't be bothered to learn the basics and equip yourselves properly. If wavecall was the only ability you knew how to use, that is not something you can lay at the feet of the PoM. That is a choice you've made as a player. If you're in an organization opposed to the PoM or too proud to pay for safe passage that is not something you can lay at the feet of the PoM. It's a choice your character has made.

    Ship combat is as simple as it gets. You've got four "afflictions" and five or six "defences" and assorted abilities with damage being the only way to "kill". Forceboard is overpowered in some respects but if you sail alone that's also a choice you've made, not the PoM's fault.

    If you're not going to bother to learn the mechanics, if you're not going to do the GROUP activity as part of a GROUP and if you've made zero attempts in game towards any of the possible solutions or alternatives you don't have the right to demand changes to a system you've failed to properly engage with.


  • @Kinilan a reminder that the point of this thread was what changes to seafaring would people want to see so they would get more involved in it.  You saying that they have no right to suggest things because they haven't invested the time/energy/credits into it is inconsistent with that. 

  • Greys said:

    @Kinilan a reminder that the point of this thread was what changes to seafaring would people want to see so they would get more involved in it.  You saying that they have no right to suggest things because they haven't invested the time/energy/credits into it is inconsistent with that. 

    No I'm saying people that have no understanding of ship combat beyond the scope of wavecall, people that use unarmed, undercrewed cutters by choice and have never even tried to fight back don't get to start a forum crusade against something they have put no effort into changing in game. They players should make an effort, any effort at all, before demanding something be done to the system.

    You want to talk about forceboarding is overpowered and shifts the engagement into a far more complex and usually one-sided matter,  or that spidershot heavily punishes people that sail alone and that some people would seem to rather this over seafaring being a group activity are things within the scope of the thread.

    Complaining about a player created state of affairs where one side persues their roles and another does not and then demands things be changed in their favour with no effort ever being made in game to change that state is not.
  • TharvisTharvis The Land of Beer and Chocolate!
    Melodie said:


    Another note, I think things have been made worse because Neraeos has left us. He helped keep so much alive and brimming on the sea, and if people got out of hand or did things they didn't do, boom, citadels on your ass, plus roleplay and engaging conflict. Since his departure, the seas just feel empty (exempting pirates which is mostly a negative experience right now) to me.
    agreed, I miss the random tritons climbing on my ship and lounging tauntingly, knowing they outnumber me  :(
    Aurora says, "Tharvis, why are you always breaking things?!"
    Artemis says, "You are so high maintenance, Tharvis, gosh."
    Tecton says, "It's still your fault, Tharvis."

  • Kinilan said:
    Please please please please do this please. You DO have more people. You CANcan cover more water with more eyes on the lookout. You CAN convoy trade ships when the good deals show up. Don't be an asshole and blockade though. PoM doesn't even do that. And you don't want to see what happens after an Ashtan ship gets delayed...

     Yes the pirates dominate the seas. They roam unchecked. The only person that ever fights back is Artanis and it should be pointed out that because of that he gets the respect of the PoM. He's been let off the hook a bunch of times because it's better for everyone that he can keep fighting. He's an odd duck but everyone in the PoM loves to see him around because he doesn't just bitch and moan.


    If you can't be bothered to learn the basics and equip yourselves properly. If wavecall was the only ability you knew how to use, that is not something you can lay at the feet of the PoM. That is a choice you've made as a player. If you're in an organization opposed to the PoM or too proud to pay for safe passage that is not something you can lay at the feet of the PoM. It's a choice your character has made.

    Ship combat is as simple as it gets. You've got four "afflictions" and five or six "defences" and assorted abilities with damage being the only way to "kill". Forceboard is overpowered in some respects but if you sail alone that's also a choice you've made, not the PoM's fault.

    If you're not going to bother to learn the mechanics, if you're not going to do the GROUP activity as part of a GROUP and if you've made zero attempts in game towards any of the possible solutions or alternatives you don't have the right to demand changes to a system you've failed to properly engage with.


    In my pie in the sky dream, team gray/white would probably do one initial pirate bloodbath when we were ready/strong enough, just to prove to ourselves it's possible.  Blockading... what I mean by that is something similar to what you guys tend to do right now, within reason (sneakily sitting at the harbour entrance and sinking ships that come in for an hour or two), and also just ship warfare near the big harbours (even as Windcutters from both sides are probably slipping by).  Also, Strider detachments protecting Windcutter convoys for big trade deals.  And if we ever did get the upper hand in that way (or even more ideally, sort of an equal hand), I hope we'd be as good about it as PoM have been.  I'd also hope that PoM and Mariner's players at all levels (not just one or two org heads) might be talking extensively OOC to make sure things are actually remaining fun.    

    Arty is like... the only guy crazy enough to do anything.  I am sailing with him whenever I can, but I start school very soon now.  He's also managed to get a few regular crew members, so he can have some chance of actually getting the job done.   

    Also, we do have a fair few people in Mariner's who have a clue.  I think fewer people are actually sailing *completely* alone, but most are still probably still undermanning their ships by a lot, and to be fair, it can be *really* hard to find crew... even crew less competent than me (and I'll be honest, I kind of suck), because everyone wants to sail their own ship.  I'd mentioned before that I've gone so far as to completely rearrange my SPPs in a way that means I can barely move a ship on my own, partly because I was interested in trying the other SPPs, but also because I know almost everyone is 4 or 5 in Command and Watch (and never anything else). 

    So yes, there are a fair few people in Mariner's who are probably very much capable of starting to crew together with a more offensive mindset, but there just doesn't seem to be a strong desire to try to group up and start learning how to hit back.  There's an official initiative in the works, and that's great, but I see that as something that would complement people's efforts to self-organize, rather than being a driving force.  My hope is that a few of the people who have a clue will realize how much fun they could be having together, and start sailing together and trying things out - which would almost certainly attract more interest.  
  • K just came back from dormancy and don't have time for all 8 pages of this at the moment but I'm guessing Naval raids have come up already.

    I know in the past the idea of Naval siege has been rejected because "Hashan and Eleusis are landlocked", and uh... does that matter? I mean Switzerland never said 'plees don't build navies becos ve aren't able to eizer. So much effort vent into ze Sviss Army knife and ve don't have ze resources for a Sviss Navy Knife okay?'

    I'm sorry my joke dragged on but the point is that sometimes having a perfectly fair and balanced world is a buzzkill. Just means that Hashan needs a better army and an alliance with a coastal city-state in order to aid naval raids. They may have the advantage of being unbombardable.


    Idea #2
    Achaea wants more siege.
    Might use long-range ship ammo that functions in a way that star tarots used to, area-wide. Low-accuracy so you can't focus a person or room, just general harass. Probably sentry towers/lighthouses coming into play defensively.

    Sorry if it's been debunked already but I think it has potential, aside from being downright logical, since that's what navies have always been used for, that and landing parties.
    I like my steak like I like my Magic cards: mythic rare.
  • And will this seafaring overhaul have an airship counterpart? :P
    I like my steak like I like my Magic cards: mythic rare.
  • Hashan could operate the harbour out of Tasur'ke. I don't see a problem with that.
  • TharvisTharvis The Land of Beer and Chocolate!
    Razha said:
    Hashan could operate the harbour out of Tasur'ke. I don't see a problem with that.
    well, the person selling the basic ships would have to be moved to another harbour then
    Aurora says, "Tharvis, why are you always breaking things?!"
    Artemis says, "You are so high maintenance, Tharvis, gosh."
    Tecton says, "It's still your fault, Tharvis."

  • Thrassi instead?
  • Tharvis said:
    Razha said:
    Hashan could operate the harbour out of Tasur'ke. I don't see a problem with that.
    well, the person selling the basic ships would have to be moved to another harbour then
    And move all ship trade related functions and the shops.
  • edited September 2014
    Finally news that the old "hahaha i'm on my ship" trick is going to be removed. This was definitely a problem and it's a shame that it's come to this. Ships were a nice place to afk, read news, and inscribe cards safely. However, just a certain few people will try to kill you and then jump on a ship and wait for shit to reset if they fail. It's broken as fuck.

    I think the biggest turnoff to seafaring and ships is the price. It's just incredibly expensive as people have said and not great for drawing in new players. They hear you can sail ships and even be a pirate and think "cool" until they hear they need to trans seafaring, gather up 2.5mil in gold and calculate the price of it all. Then they just log right the hell out and go buy a pirate game for $50 which ends up being cheaper.

    The second issue is pirates. I know some people like it, but it's just one of those things. It's a pain and rather one-sided. Perhaps if there were "safe routes" for travelers and fishers to take that are patrolled by NPC ships. The npc ships should be able to be engaged and taken down of course, but reset after a while. This would help alleviate some of the paranoia that the Pirates are going to jump out going "Surprise mother fucker!" the moment you leave harbor.  

    You might even be able to create a fun system out of this by adding in an opposing faction to the Pirates and giving each influence over an NPC navy. This way they can fight over areas and routes, the winner getting their faction's right to that area until it's taken back and gaining profit for the organization by salvaging/looting the opponents ships. I think that kind of stuff would be more fun than how it currently is. Obviously it would be a disaster to let them command npc ships to do their bidding, but just having them patrol the areas and routes currently occupied by the faction to do their thing.

    and look, a bonus.. now we have a legit use for posters! Hanging them up in harbors warning which routes/area's are occupied by pirates.
  • KlendathuKlendathu Eye of the Storm
    Kaie said:
    You might even be able to create a fun system out of this by adding in an opposing faction to the Pirates and giving each influence over an NPC navy. This way they can fight over areas and routes, the winner getting their faction's right to that area until it's taken back and gaining profit for the organization by salvaging/looting the opponents ships. I think that kind of stuff would be more fun than how it currently is. Obviously it would be a disaster to let them command npc ships to do their bidding, but just having them patrol the areas and routes currently occupied by the faction to do their thing.

    and look, a bonus.. now we have a legit use for posters! Hanging them up in harbors warning which routes/area's are occupied by pirates.
    Sounds like a plan. Make it so, seafaring PLAYERS.

    Tharos, the Announcer of Delos shouts, "It's near the end of the egghunt and I still haven't figured out how to pronounce Clean-dat-hoo."
  • Xith said:
    And will this seafaring overhaul have an airship counterpart? :P
    This sounds awesome.  It's a lot to ask, but I wonder if they could integrate it into air support for ships.  Then again, as we were just discussing, ship combat is actually quite appealing to non-coms (or could be) because it's incredibly less complicated than land combat, but with very much the same principles.  A true stepping stone, probably.  
  • edited September 2014
    Kaie said:
    Finally news that the old "hahaha i'm on my ship" trick is going to be removed. This was definitely a problem and it's a shame that it's come to this. Ships were a nice place to afk, read news, and inscribe cards safely. However, just a certain few people will try to kill you and then jump on a ship and wait for shit to reset if they fail. It's broken as fuck.

    Wait... are we just talking about the sort of silliness that went on with the Conclave battles, or are hostile people going to be able to board me in a harbour?  I'm not seeing an announce post.  Please don't do this.  My ship is perhaps my favorite place to look at things in mudlet, or read news/scrolls, but especially look at things in my client (which obviously means I am distracted).  Ships highlight a problem with *housing*.  To be honest, housing being fairly easy to break into wouldn't be *quite* so bad if you didn't have to consider the personality/views/stance of MoS staff, but you do.  In my case, a guy prismed in and I locked him in.  It actually would have been fun, if not for the MoS response to it.  I had a mono down, but I wasn't quite quick enough to stop the prism (but again, I did lock him in, because I already knew you couldn't idle in a house without paying pretty close attention).  I was *completely* manual at the time.  I did learn about shimmering orbs on the ground, which isn't generally required, but a nice additional touch, and something I've started doing, but the bottom line is that I still have a charge I'm going to have to eventually get off Cyrene's books.  Through tells other Cyrenians told me they'd just said "fuck it" with their sub houses, because it's not even that you can't "AFK" in them, in the classic sense of that word, it's that you have to have eyes glued on screen as if you were driving a Cali freeway.  Not exactly a place to relax.  In fact, houses are almost completely unusable.  Easy to break in to plus unpredictable/possibly punitive MoS stance = don't bother with sub houses, frankly, so that leaves ships.  I obviously didn't buy my ship expressly to dink about in, but it's perfect for it, and fulfills a role that houses fall far, far short in (even though I now also have no prism installed).  
  • I think what's being done is a means to pull people off of ships if they flee during the course of conflict. It's apparently a loophole and never meant to be a feature of owning a ship.
  • Sounds good in theory (and probably will be fine unless there's some weird way to troll it).  Thanks!
  • Jules said:
    Kaie said:
    Finally news that the old "hahaha i'm on my ship" trick is going to be removed. This was definitely a problem and it's a shame that it's come to this. Ships were a nice place to afk, read news, and inscribe cards safely. However, just a certain few people will try to kill you and then jump on a ship and wait for shit to reset if they fail. It's broken as fuck.

    Wait... are we just talking about the sort of silliness that went on with the Conclave battles, or are hostile people going to be able to board me in a harbour?  I'm not seeing an announce post.

    From page 1 of this thread:
    Sarapis said:
    @Jhui Yeah, I can pretty much guarantee that ensuring that you can't safely sit on a ship in a harbor will be on the to-do list. 


    Haven't seen anything more specific, so I assume that (and surrounding discussion) is what @Kaie was referring to.
  • He did say that originally, but I think that exactly because of the lack of security in homes, and because of the way ships are being used (as a stopgap for worthless sub homes), he did sort of back off on that.  I sure wouldn't want to use my ship for *just* that, but you know what, if someone does want to do that, I really don't care - so long as there's enough slips in harbour.  So, it does sound like the intent now is just to prevent people from abusing the mechanics of ships to get away with crazy stuff, with the only real (yet critical) example I know of being the Conclave thing.  Is it also true of the Relics?  If so that would be another example.
  • Why, Why, Why does everything have to be about combat? I love sailing, I love the chops, I love fishing, I love ship trades (when its worth doing), I love the idea of being on the open sea with the wind in my hair,  but its all ruined because of a few bullies. Why can't anyone appreciate all the myriads of things there are to do without violence? I think if I can't sit on a ship in a harbour and feel safe is the day I quit spending my money on Achaea. There are endless things to do and roleplay that don't involve killing someone. It took me a long time to become a decent sailor and the days that I spent learning were wonderful ones. That is MY rant.

    Seriously, I would like to see a system where those who want to have ship battles have them and those who don't can sail in peace. Weren't most pirates about stealing cargo?  City ships can battle city ships. Pirates can steal cargo from larger trade ships, maybe you have to have a special flag while trading. Those seem like legitimate roleplay reasons for ship combat but just attacking every ship you run across is plain annoying and does nothing to encourage using the ship system.

    The complexity of Achaea and the creativity of its players has always amazed me but it just seems like all the things I like about this game are being slowly taken away.
  • HeroseHerose Nova Scotia, Canada
    I think splitting the vast ocean into "open PK" areas and those that aren't "open PK" would help seafaring a lot.  You could have the best trade routes, the most profitable islands, the best fishing, etc... pass through open PK areas.  More risk means more reward.  You could get a notice similar to UW or Annwyn that your entering an open PK area when sailing into these areas.

    Then anyone who is just learning about seafaring or simply isn't interested in combat can stay out of those areas.  Maybe as they get more comfortable sailing they'll venture into those areas in search of higher rewards.

    Those who are interested in combat have a smaller area to patrol and would have a much easier time finding action.
  • I hate all fishing.  That said, people who *really* like to fish are probably less interested in ship combat than anyone, so why force those people into combat?  I anticipate some shrubbings for autofishing, but I still don't feel the need to force those people into ship combat.  Let people flag a ship as a fishing trawler or something.  Can't carry any cargo while a "trawler", and being a trawler basically means you're worthless to a pirate.  Then again, this messes up the pirate's extortion racket, which in any other circumstances I would scream bloody murder about, and come to think of it, I actually *do* think it's dodgy in the case of ships that are heavily Asthani funded.  If it's PoM operating without city support (or with *very* minimal city support), it's sort of an offset to the very high cost of ammo.  Anyway, it fits with their RP, but frankly, I am not supportive because of that, but because of probably quite high out of pocket costs to a few players that potentially make the game more interesting for a lot of players.  If that were not the case, I would feel... very differently.  

    I wouldn't even be totally against ship trades working the same way, except I do think trade routes were always supposed to be interwoven with ship combat (in that they are the carrot there) but letting people fish to their heart's content seems legit.  As it is so few ship trades are worth doing (which is hopefully changed at least a bit) and pirates wouldn't be pirates if they weren't trying to get booty.  I would also be uber pissed if half the game was sailing with absolutely no fear and buying out all of the goddamned rum and custard - but, frankly, I would like to see an almost unlimited supply of those things anyway.  
  • On second thought, I hope it doesn't just come to be that people can rip you off of your ship. It sucks to ruin something nice over a handful of dishonorable people that want to cheat the system.
  • One word: commandeer.


    I like my steak like I like my Magic cards: mythic rare.
  • BluefBluef Delos
    edited September 2014
    Kaie said:
    I think what's being done is a means to pull people off of ships if they flee during the course of conflict. It's apparently a loophole and never meant to be a feature of owning a ship.
    Why can't the Garden just make it a simple breach of HELP HONOUR to abuse ships as a hiding place? Or would this require too much policing of issues on top of the already issue-happy culture of Achaea?

    Seriously though, if this is not a feature of a ship, then are we getting the graced area effect removed from ferries too because I am fricking tired of chasing certain little asshats to ferry points where they hop aboard and sail off to graceland to avoid combat. Just saying. I paid 2.5 million gold to be able to sit my ass on my ship when I want to. People not abusing them as PK hidey holes shouldn't be punished for other people's shittiness. 

    [Edited for typos]
  • edited September 2014
    @Bluef‌ it's not already? You're not allowed to journal out of combat, pretty sure, I think ships would apply for the same reason.
  • Bluef said:
    Kaie said:
    I think what's being done is a means to pull people off of ships if they flee during the course of conflict. It's apparently a loophole and never meant to be a feature of owning a ship.
    Why can't the Garden just make it a simple breach of HELP HONOUR to abuse ships as a hiding place? Or would this require too much policing of issues on top of the already issue-happy culture of Achaea?

    Seriously though, if this is not a feature of a ship, then are we getting the graced area effect removed from ferries too because I am fricking tired of chasing certain little asshats to ferry points where they hop aboard and sail off to graceland to avoid combat. Just saying. I paid 2.5 million gold to be able to sit my ass on my ship when I want to. People not abusing them as PK hidey holes shouldn't be punished for other people's shittiness. 

    [Edited for typos]
    Aren't the two of you notorious for hiding on ships to avoid being attacked? Unless you've changed vastly.
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