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More to Alchemy than Killing

TiselTisel Posts: 60Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished

I know there are talks about trade skills being separated eventually, but until that happens, I'd like to hear from other Alchemist, what you do besides killing, and any tips, tricks or hints. Myself, I've been focusing strictly on the alchemy skill, with the goal of reaching metallurgy and then Transmutation after I embrace. Actually, I found that I could not reach metallurgy until after I embrace, due to the skill cap. Since I am not using anything from Physiology, my only attacks are Educe Iron. Displace and Educe Copper seem the only good skills for helping out in a group. Straight Alchemy seems weak for any type of combat, so I avoid PvP. Astronomy could be helpful for my city, if there are enough people who have reached that level. Instead of hunting, I've been spending a lot of time extracting, since I'll need that stuff later on.

So, any tips on extraction, group participation, and single combat (denizens who get in the way of my extraction)?

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  • ZiiZii Posts: 612Member @ - Epic Achaean

    4 second EQ for educes.  Get a web and hourglass.  Displace raiders when you can.


    Your offense is physiology.  Extracting is easy and boring, most things leave you alone, you'll learn quick what won't.

    *Animated Signature*

    SharaTrilliana
  • TiselTisel Posts: 60Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished

    I'll be going more for the "I'll heal you if you protect me". Team work seems to better suited for me, without physiology.

  • SharaShara MidlandsPosts: 196Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished

    Not to sound really unhelpful, but if your Alchemy House/Whatever hasn't explained a lesson plan of why you need to Trans Alchemy before going into Transmutation (Minerals) or Physiology (PK combat), you need to rethink your IG city of learning. If you think Targ doesn't have enough Alchemists to focus an orrery because you all are that disorganised; change cities now and go to where you can really learn your class- Mhaldor or Hashan imo. 

    Educe Iron scales with Alchemy and if you haven't been learning to hunt, you should. It's easier than you think as an Alchie and you want those bonus credits for lessons. The desire to have/use/help with Empowerment is useful for hunting and for your citymates- get it. Extracting is boring, and you could buy your primes later on if you are resourceful in networking. Raiding defensively even with a couple of skills can be done if you get a good teacher- seek them out. Not sure who in Targossas to go to, but like I said- maybe you need a better city. If you don't want to learn combat over mineral making, there isn't a lot you can do but hunt and extract. Good luck and leave Targossas.


    ohmergerdIsoundlike @vayne

    Vayne
  • ShunsuiShunsui Posts: 681Member @@ - Legendary Achaean

    Keep an eye out for Cadarus ig, he's the most active alchemist in Targossas by far. I'll also try and get in touch with you if you like as well, I was alch for quite a while, though I recently switched. 

    TiselRomHalos
  • TiselTisel Posts: 60Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished

    So who supplies the Primes that I can buy later? Some one has to do the grunt work, and I am going on trust that eventually my extracting will be worth it. I wish using skills could get you experience, but it doesn't, so I do have to hunt, which is why I have made it to level 50. I take it as a matter of pride that I got this far on my own, without tagging along on bashing parties and leeching the experience. I know a lot of people push for the combat, but that is not my direction. My routine is clear out a cave getting the experience, then go back in and extract.

    As for a House, in Targossas there is no Alchemy House, alchemist are welcome in every House, so it is a bit harder to get specific info, which is why I started this thread. I know there are Alchemist in Targossas, but apparently not in my time zone. There may be a clan, but I haven't figure out how to look those up.


  • TeshaTesha Posts: 2,786Member @@ - Legendary Achaean

    Look for me if you have any questions. You don't have to leave Targossas just because we don't have an Alchemist-focused clan. We'll help you figure things out just as well as anyone else can (and Cadarus is better at Alchy fighting than anyone else in the game, so there's that to keep in mind for later, too!). We like you and we'll help you. :)

     i'm a rebel

  • TiselTisel Posts: 60Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished

    I don't plan on leaving. I'm just trying to add another option for people. With the split into sub forums for each class, I wanted to get something going for Alchemist and learn about Alchemy at the same time.

  • VayneVayne Rhode IslandPosts: 1,897Member

    I'm not aware of a strong alchemy base in Targossas, but I would encourage you try to establish one. They have a decent amount of competent Alchemists both RP and combat wise. I would encourage your sentiment of being a catalyst for building it yourself. I will try to recruit you IG regardless. :)

    image
    Gibbi
  • VithincusVithincus Posts: 149Member ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent

    You should focus on Alchemy first. It'll boost the damage of your educe iron later on. There are plenty of alchemists in Targossas right now, and it never takes long to get our astronomy up and going when the year changes over. Your fellow Targossian alchemists are pretty much always in need of the primes you extract, so even if you're not that high in transmutation you can always make gold selling your primes and metals to us. So yeah. Plenty of fellow alchemists in Targ. Feel free to contact me in game if you'd like!

  • AntreusAntreus Posts: 131Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited November 2014
    Tisel said:

    I know there are talks about trade skills being separated eventually, but until that happens, I'd like to hear from other Alchemist, what you do besides killing, and any tips, tricks or hints. Myself, I've been focusing strictly on the alchemy skill, with the goal of reaching metallurgy and then Transmutation after I embrace. Actually, I found that I could not reach metallurgy until after I embrace, due to the skill cap. Since I am not using anything from Physiology, my only attacks are Educe Iron. Displace and Educe Copper seem the only good skills for helping out in a group. Straight Alchemy seems weak for any type of combat, so I avoid PvP. Astronomy could be helpful for my city, if there are enough people who have reached that level. Instead of hunting, I've been spending a lot of time extracting, since I'll need that stuff later on.

    So, any tips on extraction, group participation, and single combat (denizens who get in the way of my extraction)?

    Transmutation is a time consuming endeavor and while providing your own curatives can save you money, or pay for itself in time, I've yet to make any money selling them yet. The trend seems sitting in a lab for hours on end, so bring something to do in the background, like helping novices or something to make the best use of your time. It's labor intensive work for little gain without the right connections or a repeat customer base: you have to be good at marketing too! Maybe toss in a gift after they've done enough business with you.

    You might want to find work with an Alchemist who can synthesis primes that you are able to extract freely in Alchemy after you learn Mercury. This lets the Transmutation expert focus on synthesising and creating minerals, instead of having to do the labor of going out and getting fresh stock. I think when Multiclassing comes around this will become more prominent, because those without transmutation can still make a little income working with a Transmutation tradesman... unless this gets folded into Transmutation. 

    By and by, one can hope that Alchemy turns a bit more utilitarian like Groves for Druids, since we seem to be two sides of the same coin via Harmony and Empower: planets and plants. In terms of interacting with the environment or using it tactically, there isn't a whole lot of that with the Alchemist outside of extracting primes.

    ---
    Some suggestions on how to spend your points would be Alchemy > Physiology > Transmutation. I went Alchemy > Transmutation > Physiology as my preference, because I work with others closely to make use of it.

    Just learning Alchemy will improve your overall damage when engaging in PvE via iron eduction, but also gives you abilities to debuff and deflect damage from those that customarily use weapons as a source of damage in PvP, or diminish their capacity to heal: Phlostigication/Vitrification. Also would suggest getting a web tattoo, it can be used defensively or offensively. 

    I'm not a combatant, but when I see abilities like Tin, Copper, Vitrification/Phlos, Salt - they seem to prefer drawn out skirmishes, slowly debasing the targets mana in order to go in for an aurify kill. 

    A male voice is heard through the membrane, "Hey, girl."

    A male voice is heard through the membrane, "Are you an Apostate? ..because you just tore my heart out."

  • AddamaAddama Posts: 947Member ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    Antreus said:


    I'm not a combatant, but when I see abilities like Tin, Copper, Vitrification/Phlos, Salt - they seem to prefer drawn out skirmishes, slowly debasing the targets mana in order to go in for an aurify kill. 
    Yeah, this isn't how Alchemist combat works.
    ~Kresslack's obsession~
  • KuyKuy Posts: 1,497Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Addama said:
    Antreus said:


    I'm not a combatant, but when I see abilities like Tin, Copper, Vitrification/Phlos, Salt - they seem to prefer drawn out skirmishes, slowly debasing the targets mana in order to go in for an aurify kill. 
    Yeah, this isn't how Alchemist combat works.
    Actually, the heart of the Alchemist kit is long, drawn-out battle.  If an alchemist survives until she gets 10 tempers on you, she wins.

    That said, Alchies don't need to do that, nor do their defences really allow them.
    [2:41:24 AM] Kenway: I bet you smell like evergreen trees and you could wrestle boreal mammals but they'd rather just cuddle you
  • AddamaAddama Posts: 947Member ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    Writes a page-length post about how to be an Alchemist, never mentions wracking.
    ~Kresslack's obsession~
    Ernam
  • AntreusAntreus Posts: 131Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited November 2014
    Addama said:
    Writes a page-length post about how to be an Alchemist, never mentions wracking.
    If you would like me to blather on about wracking tempers in Physiology, which reminds me a bit of fashioning when I was a Shaman, then I will be happy to take up another page, but that wasn't why I was reply to the OP (see below).

    If you think you'd be a good candidate to talk about Tempering Addama, which I don't believe I am (mostly an RPer), please do so, and enlighten all of us in kind. I am not a combatant, but I am in agreement with Kuy on the kit having a preference for drawn-out battles. I believe @Hellen‌ already did a good job at explaining Physiology.

    Alchemist combat has to change based on the abilities you have at your disposal, like with any class. If you only train Alchemy and Transmutations, which from what I read from the OP above, then how you accomplish your goals will be much different. 

    Tisel said:

    I know there are talks about trade skills being separated eventually, but until that happens, I'd like to hear from other Alchemist, what you do besides killing, and any tips, tricks or hints. 

    ...

    So, any tips on extraction, group participation, and single combat (denizens who get in the way of my extraction)?

    I am replying to Tisel of my own experiences with the Alchemists so that he can reflect on his own experiences as a player. I am not advocating anything that I am not willing to concede as I learn more about the class.

    I also replied because I saw a similar preference in his choice of Alchemy skills: Alchemy > Transmutation and thought I could give some ideas on how I would use what I have to be as useful as possible.

    A male voice is heard through the membrane, "Hey, girl."

    A male voice is heard through the membrane, "Are you an Apostate? ..because you just tore my heart out."

  • AntreusAntreus Posts: 131Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished

    Tisel said:

    As for a House, in Targossas there is no Alchemy House, alchemist are welcome in every House, so it is a bit harder to get specific info, which is why I started this thread. I know there are Alchemist in Targossas, but apparently not in my time zone. There may be a clan, but I haven't figure out how to look those up.


    There is a clan, 'tis called the Alchemical Society, run by Fluid. I believe that with a bit of leadership and elbow grease it could be come quite a lively place for Alchemists to trade primes and roleplay together in solidarity.

    A male voice is heard through the membrane, "Hey, girl."

    A male voice is heard through the membrane, "Are you an Apostate? ..because you just tore my heart out."

  • TaelTael Posts: 1,197Member @ - Epic Achaean
    I've always thought that a cross-city alchemy clan was a wonderful idea and always been sad that no one really made it a reality. Maybe you can help catalyze (heh) it!

    The cities would have to make a sort of exception to all the "non-fraternization" rules for it, but it seems like a very reasonable place to have such an exception and it isn't hard to imagine RP justification (since alchemists provide most of the curatives to cities these days, they could easily RP using this for leverage). I imagine a lot of the cities would be resistant to this, but this is a place where some OOC communication would probably do the trick ("Hey, we're trying to make a neat Alchemist thing. I know the city has a rule against fraternization, but can we work out a reasonable RP justification to allow this to happen?").
  • SenaSena Posts: 3,825Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited November 2014
    Tael said:
    I've always thought that a cross-city alchemy clan was a wonderful idea and always been sad that no one really made it a reality. Maybe you can help catalyze (heh) it!
    There were actually two. It's just that every single alchemy clan/organisation except Hashan's quickly died after the initial rush of new class enthusiasm wore off.

    There's basically no interest in alchemist roleplay outside of Hashan (there are a few scattered individuals, but not enough to build a clan from). And even in Hashan, it seemed (from the perspective of an outsider) that it took a lot of effort to cultivate that interest.
    Antreus
  • VayneVayne Rhode IslandPosts: 1,897Member
    We did put a lot of work into the Institute and beat out the other clans in terms of roleplay and recruitment. One thing is that we required members to be Hashani citizens which fostered a sense of elitism within our ranks and ended up drawing a lot of characters from around the game. We did stimulate some competition through it though, mainly in the Ebon Fist in Mhaldor, but we ended up outlasting them too when some internal matters seemed to make them lose their edge alchemically.

    Yet, the other side of the coin, disparaging remarks aside, is that to be part of arguably the only alchemist community you do need to be Hashani, which obviously is not going to be conducive to everyone's playstyle or desires. With the state of factionalization as it is, I do not foresee and universal alchemist clans taking off, but there is grounds for rival groups to the Institute if they can get up and running.

    That being said, alchemist is still waaaaay untapped in almost every area. There are oceans of rp opportunities awaiting them, currently they are great at making money and trade, and the combat potential is largely untapped. I have seen a lot high level combatants switch and switch out of the class but none have committed that I am aware of. Nonetheless, it has a lot of potential in raids in a wide variety of situations.
    image
    Antreus
  • DaslinDaslin The place with the oxygenPosts: 2,492Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Stop necro'ing threads, dear sweet GOD. Let them lie.
    Halos
  • AntreusAntreus Posts: 131Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Tael said:
    I've always thought that a cross-city alchemy clan was a wonderful idea and always been sad that no one really made it a reality. Maybe you can help catalyze (heh) it!

    The cities would have to make a sort of exception to all the "non-fraternization" rules for it, but it seems like a very reasonable place to have such an exception and it isn't hard to imagine RP justification (since alchemists provide most of the curatives to cities these days, they could easily RP using this for leverage). I imagine a lot of the cities would be resistant to this, but this is a place where some OOC communication would probably do the trick ("Hey, we're trying to make a neat Alchemist thing. I know the city has a rule against fraternization, but can we work out a reasonable RP justification to allow this to happen?").
    Dear @Tael‌ , it is wholly possible to exist outside fraternization rules, because the clan can be omitted from honours and also be secretive, where membership cannot see each other. There were many fraternizations back some 300 years ago, such as Anergost and Treehuggers that were banned for various reasons.

    A male voice is heard through the membrane, "Hey, girl."

    A male voice is heard through the membrane, "Are you an Apostate? ..because you just tore my heart out."

  • AddamaAddama Posts: 947Member ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    Antreus said:
    Tael said:
    I've always thought that a cross-city alchemy clan was a wonderful idea and always been sad that no one really made it a reality. Maybe you can help catalyze (heh) it!

    The cities would have to make a sort of exception to all the "non-fraternization" rules for it, but it seems like a very reasonable place to have such an exception and it isn't hard to imagine RP justification (since alchemists provide most of the curatives to cities these days, they could easily RP using this for leverage). I imagine a lot of the cities would be resistant to this, but this is a place where some OOC communication would probably do the trick ("Hey, we're trying to make a neat Alchemist thing. I know the city has a rule against fraternization, but can we work out a reasonable RP justification to allow this to happen?").
    Dear @Tael‌ , it is wholly possible to exist outside fraternization rules, because the clan can be omitted from honours and also be secretive, where membership cannot see each other. There were many fraternizations back some 300 years ago, such as Anergost and Treehuggers that were banned for various reasons.
    Violating non-fraternization policy in secret is still violating non-fraternization policy.

    Unless you intend for the clan to be totally OOC, of course.
    ~Kresslack's obsession~
  • AddamaAddama Posts: 947Member ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    I should mention that Runewardens have a clan, The Runewardens of Sapience, which is a great resource for sharing tips and strategies, but it's OOC in nature and does not violate non-fraternization for that reason.  So if you are going for something like this, that's fantastic, but a resource for Alchemists to share physical resources across cities (as you so desire) is just not possible because of non-fraternization.
    ~Kresslack's obsession~
  • AntreusAntreus Posts: 131Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited November 2014

    Vayne said:
    We did put a lot of work into the Institute and beat out the other clans in terms of roleplay and recruitment. One thing is that we required members to be Hashani citizens which fostered a sense of elitism within our ranks and ended up drawing a lot of characters from around the game. We did stimulate some competition through it though, mainly in the Ebon Fist in Mhaldor, but we ended up outlasting them too when some internal matters seemed to make them lose their edge alchemically.

    Yet, the other side of the coin, disparaging remarks aside, is that to be part of arguably the only alchemist community you do need to be Hashani, which obviously is not going to be conducive to everyone's playstyle or desires. With the state of factionalization as it is, I do not foresee and universal alchemist clans taking off, but there is grounds for rival groups to the Institute if they can get up and running.

    That being said, alchemist is still waaaaay untapped in almost every area. There are oceans of rp opportunities awaiting them, currently they are great at making money and trade, and the combat potential is largely untapped. I have seen a lot high level combatants switch and switch out of the class but none have committed that I am aware of. Nonetheless, it has a lot of potential in raids in a wide variety of situations.
    @Vayne‌ - I just recently returned as a player, so there's a lot still to think about in terms of plying my character to RP pursuits. I think the most shocking thing for me to later discover is that alchemists rely on anchors for two of their skillsets to function, even astronomy empowering, and they are practically enslaved to the cities whom these anchors are connected to, whether they want to be there or not. 

    As a character, Antreus has little understanding of the Cauda Pavonis outside of events posts. He has yet to interview and debrief the event from longstanding alchemists and bystanders. One thing that stands out quite clearly is that there is no elected body that is a liaison to the Cauda Pavonis, much like Devotionists/Necromancers/Forestals have, and it behooves any classleads to consider roleplay devices before anything is changed about the skillset. There is untapped potential in every regard as you say. That said, it begs the question why Agatheis was destroyed, because all these governing bodies are patroned by Divine in some way for maintenance, legitimacy, and demesne/morality controls.

    To truly make a universal Alchemical Society, it has to be general admission, with a large pronouncement to the PUBLIC, consistent roleplay, with a desire to become a High Clan by associating with static roleplay orgs to gain legitimacy. Things that become elitist internally, that seek to monopolize something, and stagnate are the very reason why  development of the game shifted towards the removal of the old guilds (my opinion), bringing the concept of embracing class and autoclassing, not merely a corporate decision.

    Based on my observation of roleplay being carried out over the last 12 years, it leans more towards the all-or-nothing group approach and that dynamism,  versus the private, fastidious and of'times esoteric pursuits of an individual or elite body that tend to produce roleplay events across the board. While Divine Orders behave differently in this regard, these are pet projects to a degree for the Divine associated with them.

    The trend seems necessitate the need to involve many groups so that the event is more accessible. When you think about it from an administrative point of view, it begins to make more sense. There just seems to be a lot of unspoken norms about roleplay that prevent people from acting accordingly to make real lasting change. But, even when they attempt to play their cards right CLHELP ANERGOST, things just don't work and lose steam due to the banality of pretension over time. Maintaining the immersion because taxing and difficult without much attention to propagating the delusion. Often times this means lots of credits! But, players are realistic and pragmatic, and you can't just create large cities nilly willy just because you own a mansion out in the Dakhota Hills, a subdivision won't do!


    I digress.

    The restrictions barring the gates of progress in the Alchemists seem insurmountable when compare a bit.
    If we look at Necromancy and Devotion, then we'll note that they are bound to a certain code, which if violated holds them in contempt by an ideological or regulatory body. Alchemists on the other hand cannot use the metallurgy lab or the physiology lab if they are not tied to an anchor (unless this is not accurate), nor can they use astronomy to empower people. There are no ways to create orrery outside of city-state anchors, they are enmeshed. All of an Alchemists skills make them wholly dependent on systems they have no control over, nor a choice. No choice given, isn't really a choice, that's just how it is. If you don't have a city and become a rogue, you might as well not play an Alchemist. It is entirely possible to have roleplay reasons not to want to be in a City that make this scenario ever more likely. As an old player this rigidity of skills being tied to ideological authoritative, suppresses progressive thought and creativity with its bureaucracy. This incessant need to drive gameplay via this channel, linking interdependent skills, and then penalizing utilizing them for not belonging to say a forestal organization, can be quite stifling. It is making insurgents of progressive forestals even now, and nazis of conservative leaders. Is the only analogy I can give. It is hard for progressive bodies to impact real change in Achaea's political climate. This incessant need to be rooted to a 'legitimate org' under the influence/affluence of the 'administration' is quite stifling as someone who enjoys roleplaying an ideologically promiscuous character. I understand how too much liberty has the same affect, not advocating anarchy at all. It does cater to the administrations overarching focus on PvP and events. It makes it easier to stir the pot when there's extremism, but it also has a blunt affect by demoralizing people that contribute a lot of character and roleplay opportunities. 

    All of it is troubling because I know they did not want to make another Oakstone, but they have placed restrictive measures none-the-less, especially if one finds themselves unsuitable for any city-state based on their roleplay. I personally believe the trade systems and economy overall can be improved by renovating it, not just adding another profession as a stop-gap to compensate for Oakstone's previously held tyranny over cities, which adversely affected roleplay and counterplay.

    Where overharvesting was an issue, there's no such thing with extracting precious metals for transmutation. Instead of someone telling you say, we have no one telling us anything. The trade off is that we can't seem to do anything without cities: two of our skillsets rely on being anchored two a city, even astronomy.

    While Oakstone annoyed many, from my observation, the price for cures was regulated remarkably by many. The market regime/syndicate of forestals who agreed to sell no lower than a listed Oakstone, seemed to stablize the economy, outside of the availability of resources due to extermination. There's no risk to the character, and no, I'm not saying we need a regulatory body to prevent overharvesting and dole out fines. It doesn't have to be autocratic like that.

    The mechanisms that surround Alchemy is based on a seemingly irreparable debt, without many clues given on ways to repair this connection outside of the stone of the Philosophers, or to direct universal efforts to create an Anchor outside of city-state influence. There is great potential for class quests and experiments that the Alchemist stone hints at but is a let down when you see how matter-of-fact creating the nigredo effect is, with a puzzle to solve as a player. Alchemy traditionally is a philosophical act, yet so far it is quite banal in regards to that. It is entirely materialistic.

    I think advancements in the class in order to unlock more understanding of alchemy shouldn't occur unless they a) take a risk (like chaos lords), b) overcome an obstacle or task. So far transmutating the nigredo effect involves no critical thinking from the player: it just is. Why not make albedo and rubedo a quest or pursuit that has basis in the world? It is all a bit dour, because of multiclassing on the horizon with transmutation becoming a tradeskill? There is so much interdependence between the Alchemist skillsets that I wonder if Astronomy is going to become a skill. 

    While the potential of RP is there, the long-term prospects of that roleplay having a meaningful impact on the game won't occur unless the powers that be give it an approving nod. This usually happens because of general consensus. That's a lot of people to convince in game that things are mechanically driven not to have an effect on roleplaying outside of cities, when they lose two skillsets for impinging this reality.

    The only example I can give on what transmutating the nigredo and albedo could mean is by create a system of cause and effect like the Sylvan's laboratory. Where you change something about yourself due to an experiment upon yourself, similarly with Occultists becoming Chaos lords.

    ---
    I may have to edit this post later as I ran out of time to devote to it.

    A male voice is heard through the membrane, "Hey, girl."

    A male voice is heard through the membrane, "Are you an Apostate? ..because you just tore my heart out."

  • AntreusAntreus Posts: 131Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    I lost the ability to edit my blathering, so I'll just let it be.

    A male voice is heard through the membrane, "Hey, girl."

    A male voice is heard through the membrane, "Are you an Apostate? ..because you just tore my heart out."

  • AntreusAntreus Posts: 131Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited November 2014
    Addama said:
    Antreus said:
    Tael said:
    I've always thought that a cross-city alchemy clan was a wonderful idea and always been sad that no one really made it a reality. Maybe you can help catalyze (heh) it!

    The cities would have to make a sort of exception to all the "non-fraternization" rules for it, but it seems like a very reasonable place to have such an exception and it isn't hard to imagine RP justification (since alchemists provide most of the curatives to cities these days, they could easily RP using this for leverage). I imagine a lot of the cities would be resistant to this, but this is a place where some OOC communication would probably do the trick ("Hey, we're trying to make a neat Alchemist thing. I know the city has a rule against fraternization, but can we work out a reasonable RP justification to allow this to happen?").
    Dear @Tael‌ , it is wholly possible to exist outside fraternization rules, because the clan can be omitted from honours and also be secretive, where membership cannot see each other. There were many fraternizations back some 300 years ago, such as Anergost and Treehuggers that were banned for various reasons.
    Violating non-fraternization policy in secret is still violating non-fraternization policy.

    Unless you intend for the clan to be totally OOC, of course.
    Well, it is crazy when you consider the OOC nature of non-fraternization policy from the Administration embedded in the skills themselves, which creates a ripple effect on non-fraternization policy IC. With the advent of Alchemists it becomes quite obvious that they aren't into letting people play neutral aligned characters. And here I thought neutral aligned characters were quite active in the world - no longer. The only reason to overcome this is to make an OOC fraternity that works together in game without any organization to be tracked or countered by non-fraternization policy.

    This means rogues just supply primes to alchemists in cities. It becomes complex fast at this point.

    A male voice is heard through the membrane, "Hey, girl."

    A male voice is heard through the membrane, "Are you an Apostate? ..because you just tore my heart out."

  • VayneVayne Rhode IslandPosts: 1,897Member
    The fact that alchemy, by design, was so intimately tied to the cities was a consideration in the development of the Institute. We established first off that our goals and intentions were would all be for the benefit of Hashan and we have established quite a mutualistic bond with the city to the extent where we are essentially an acting House. We have sought high clan status, but certain considerations with the coming renaissance have suspended that process for the time being.

    The anchors were designed as a device to tie alchemy to the 5 non-forestal cities to ensure that everyone had access to curatives when the choice was presented. I am too a bit wary about how the trade skill split will affect alchemy with transmutation being so bound up in the class's flavour, but I expect in turn it will change how and if the anchors operate in the same manner they did before. Of course, this would take some inventive storylines to circumnavigate that crux.
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    Antreus
  • AddamaAddama Posts: 947Member ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    Antreus said:
    The only reason to overcome this is to make an OOC fraternity that works together in game without any organization to be tracked or countered by non-fraternization policy.
    That's not a reason, that's a method.  A reason would be a proper justification for Alchemist rogues existing.  "Because I want to be a rogue and an Alchemist" isn't actually a proper justification.  Give me a solid example of why you'd want to be a Rogue Alchemist beside the economic advantage of being able to sell to and buy from anybody in the game.

    And non-fraternization exists for a variety of reasons.  I don't think it's in the administration's interest to hard-code a clan to circumvent non-fraternization.  Nobody is opposed to you forming an OOC clan to discuss Alchemy, but I can't imagine a scenario in which Targossas or Mhaldor would agree to allow their Alchemists to trade primes.  It would trivialize the depth of their conflict.
    ~Kresslack's obsession~
  • AntreusAntreus Posts: 131Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited November 2014
    @Addama‌ ;
    Reason was supposed to be way in that post you replied on.

    You only seem to get so many edits. This is a problem that has seemed to get worse for me as I get older. Sometimes what I think I"m typing isn't what I actually type. So it takes me a long time to write anything as you can imagine.

    I'm was attempting to illustrate a method on how to circumvent the top-down, "this is how it is" from on high, by employing similar tactics, and out of character means, regardless if I succeeded in explaining myself that was my intention for that. You could make a city entirely outside of Achaea with a secretive clan, build a website and portal in mIRC or something, with similar democratic functionality that many cities possess. It would be a phantom city, but it could very well influence people of Achaea, without them ever realizing it. This is just a thought experiment.

    I'm not saying I would  create an organization entirely outside the game to have Alchemists work together across city-state lines, but I also am trying to say, this is what it has come down to for rogue players who have consistent roleplay that is inconsistent with how things _have_ to be from on High, through the gating most of Alchemists abilities and skillsets.  It isn't about being a special snowflake. Who honestly chooses suffering willingly? Some folk already have the social networks they want, they aren't looking to be accepted by another.

     It isn't what I consider an enjoyable affair, but it is entirely consistent with my roleplay, and it has nothing to do with any perceived economic benefit. It would probably consist of arbitrage trading, black market, and fencing items from thieves to sell in cities. The amount of roleplay it takes to even be a rogue is considerable, when you consider the amount of social interaction it requires to maintain contacts and lists of people to call favours from.

    A similar sort of factionalism happened in the forestal community when I was a Sylvan over the whole 'rogue' problem with the Treehuggers clan, CLHELP TREEHUGGERS. They don't seem to want this sort of behaviour at all. The argument was essentially, "you're not a forestal if you're not in a forestal organization tied to the central authority of Oakstone." Similarly, one is not an alchemist unless he's apart of a city-state. Unlike other classes who need equipment to use trade skills, Alchemists require a hospital city to become an alchemist at all. So they can't just join a neutral House in Delos should they ever open up membership to alchemists. The definition of what a rogue is has changed since I was most active, but you can be a member of the Serpent Lords House and not be a member of the city of Hashan - unless that was changed recently. You just can't be an enemy of Hashan if you want to use the House Hall. In this instance, Alchemists are the only true rogue class that I see in Achaea, because Serpents have access to milking rooms in their House Hall if they are a member of the Serpent Lords. The idea of being a mercenary for hire, doesn't exist in achaea, outside of the Marks, but is typically a rogue-like activity.

    For some players their involvement in the game isn't centered around being in a city at all. There is no neutral city, and for people whom are extremely devout characters and specialized outside of city-state loyalties, politics of the day mean very little for them - they just get in the way. Being at odds with any city can jeopardize their mission. Being a rogue happens in these circumstances. It isn't always about being an individual either. It happens quite naturally when personal views or private orgs/high clans become more important to the player than city-states.

    People get isolated from the only cities they know due to politics, and when there's nothing left, Orders and private orgs are where they land. So for an alchemist falling into a situation like this it is entirely ruinous, when it is not so for many other classes.

    A male voice is heard through the membrane, "Hey, girl."

    A male voice is heard through the membrane, "Are you an Apostate? ..because you just tore my heart out."

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