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PK-ready flag

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  • NemutaurNemutaur GermanyPosts: 1,068Member
    Strata said:

    Ernam said:
    ...

    This whole thing just seems like an excuse for people to not roleplay or communicate with other players.  If you want to attack someone, and they are ok with it, then they won't issue you.  If you want to 6v1 gank someone, and they are NOT ok with it, they shouldn't have to quit mark/PK flag to force you to be reasonable.  The whole thing comes down to people being decent and respecting other players' wishes.

    ...

    Pack your shit and get up outta here. You just failed.

    https://ada-young.appspot.com/pastebin/d2525277


    I know I've placed myself under self-imposed forum ban. But the troll is here, so this thread is on its way out the door anyway.

    Haha, that is a great snippet.

    AustereJovoloTharvisSylvance
  • SenaSena Posts: 3,879Member @@ - Legendary Achaean

    For me, the difference between this (a PK flag of some kind) and the existing PK rules is similar to the difference between arranged and spontaneous roleplay. Sure, someone could contact me OOCly and we can arrange a fight or start an official rivalry or just make sure both sides are okay with everything. But it's not practical to do that constantly, and having everything be pre-announced and accepted beforehand largely removes any element of suspense or surprise. A flag like this would allow for spontaneous conflicts that don't need to be pre-arranged.

    Being entirely open PK and having people attack you just because they can isn't the goal, it's just a side-effect that seems nearly impossible to avoid. For me, it would be an acceptable sacrifice, even with me being a complete noncombatant (I don't even participate in raid defence except on rare occasions).

    In an ideal game with only mature, responsible players, such a flag wouldn't even need to make you open PK or change anything at all with regard to the rules. It could just be a way of announcing to other players that you don't mind PK, so they don't need to be as cautious about attacking you if they have an RP reason to do so. In reality though, different players have wildly different ideas about what is and isn't acceptable, and it could be intentionally abused as well, so it has to have some official impact on the rules.

    Sylvance
  • JarrodJarrod Posts: 2,920Member, Seafaring Liason @@ - Legendary Achaean

    The Mark orgs, in the past served two primary functions:

    1. Allow players who were better fighters and enjoyed fighting to expand their potential combat options. This was obviously seen in differing ways in how contracts were fulfilled and doled out, but largely you saw the 'big name' PKers such as Tanris and Jhui receiving a lot of contracts because they enjoyed having more chances to fight.

    2. Allow players who were involved in combat or interested in being involved in combat to 'show' that they were willing to be attacked. This came in varying forms, from Iocun's desire to fight more as a Cyrenian to me knowing people would want revenge on me after raids, so removing the need to worry about cause if they cared to try.

    There are differing levels of each of these, but those seemed to be the two primary functions Mark served for most of its members.

    After the change, the system more-or-less retains the first function, in a slightly different form, but now punishes random players for those who wish to use the second version. Sure, there are some, like myself, who have taken to the new system and changed how they deal with contracts (I accepted -maybe- two contracts prior to the change, and now I'm the Silent Executioner, who knew?), but there are some who have either removed themselves or are planning to remove themselves because they don't wish to inconvenience others because they don't want to complete contracts. Varying reasons, but the result is the same.

    A PK-flag, properly implemented, would remove nothing from the Mark system except those who don't wish to complete contracts but do wish to involve themselves in PK. The rules are there to put it as close to the prior Mark system in terms of showing you're willing to fight. It might be worth considering giving the XP perks to PK-flagged people, but it's up to the admin whether they wish to tie that to people who can be freely attacked or to people who work for the Mark orgs. I'd go with the former, personally, to keep only those who want to be Mark for contracts in the system.

    Nothing would change in terms of PK rulings for Mark members, so there would be no purpose to being both Mark and flagged. Honors lines wouldn't coexist, so you're either open PK flagged, Mark, or neither. Flagging yourself for PK to try to be a 'badass' (-_-) wouldn't even be possible for those who stay in the Mark.

    image
    Cascades of quicksilver light streak across the firmament as the celestial voice of Ourania intones, "Oh Jarrod..."

    Sylvance
  • StrataStrata United States of DerpPosts: 1,753Member @ - Epic Achaean
    This thread exists because the new Mark system is broken, as well as many other things outside the scope of this thread. Here is my current opinion of IRE in regard to these problems:


    image
    image
  • KlendathuKlendathu Eye of the StormPosts: 2,681Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited June 2014
    Jarrod said:

    A PK-flag, properly implemented, would remove nothing from the Mark system except those who don't wish to complete contracts but do wish to involve themselves in PK. The rules are there to put it as close to the prior Mark system in terms of showing you're willing to fight. It might be worth considering giving the XP perks to PK-flagged people, but it's up to the admin whether they wish to tie that to people who can be freely attacked or to people who work for the Mark orgs. I'd go with the former, personally, to keep only those who want to be Mark for contracts in the system.

    This.


    Tharos, the Announcer of Delos shouts, "It's near the end of the egghunt and I still haven't figured out how to pronounce Clean-dat-hoo."
  • SylvanceSylvance Posts: 1,477Member ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    edited June 2014
    Ernam said:

    This idea hurts nothing, so go for it, but it isn't the solution people really want or need.

    If anything, I think the idea of "flags" are cheesy excuses for lack of effort from both the playerbase and the admin.  I don't mean to offend anyone by that, I'm just saying that Achaea has always addressed this type of thing with an in-character response.  Originally, people wanted a PK-flag, and the mark system was invented, which provided character depth, as well as provided a good, logical reason to attack one another ("I'm attacking you because you are a well-known assassin who kills my citymates").  "Flags" are something I'm used to seeing in crappy second-rate MUDs, and aren't something that belongs in Achaea.


    The playerbase begged for mark to change, and it did.  Now it seems the same people are asking for it to essentially be changed back, except with a new name and without any in-character justification or depth.  ("I am attacking you because your PK flag is on.")


    The fact is, it's 100% unnecessary.  The PK rules already permit for completely unregulated PK in situations where it is mutually accepted that a fight is reasonable.  A simple tell, indemnification, rivalry, or a long list of in-character provocations can provide a legitimate reason to attack a character.  If you don't have cause to attack someone, and they have provided you no such exception, then frankly, you shouldn't attack them.


    Additionally, users of this system would get ganked, constantly.  The only people in the game I see using it are the members of Ashtan's earring network, and just like mark used to be, it would only serve as an honors line suggesting that you are tough.  I have to assume, for example, that @Jarrod, a character famous for never fighting anybody, would immediately enable his PVP flag, which would mean absolutely nothing in reality, but would be touted as being "badass" or some equivalent.  Meanwhile, the 20-30 active PKers in Targossas wouldn't touch it, because they'd get 6v1 phase/earring/3x Kai-choked on guards all day until they QQ'd or sat on a ship until they were eligible to quit.


    This whole thing just seems like an excuse for people to not roleplay or communicate with other players.  If you want to attack someone, and they are ok with it, then they won't issue you.  If you want to 6v1 gank someone, and they are NOT ok with it, they shouldn't have to quit mark/PK flag to force you to be reasonable.  The whole thing comes down to people being decent and respecting other players' wishes.


    Lastly, harassment is harassment.  Mark/ PK-flag status has absolutely nothing to do with harassment.  There is an aptly named help file for this subject, but in general, harassment means that someone is bothering you on an OOC level, usually through some other medium.  You should never "lose your right to issue" just because you want to participate in PK.  Anyone who suggests that this is somehow mandatory for PK to work properly is probably a griefer who is tired of the rules holding their desire to gank people of the opposing faction with impunity.


    WTF

    ETA: How much of this thread did you read before you handed your 9-year old the keyboard?

    Tvistor: If that was a troll, it was masterful.
    I take my hat off to you.
    TreyShirszae
  • ErnamErnam Posts: 2,416Member ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    @Sylvance I applaud your creative approach to the lack of WTF button.  Simply reply with WTF so the forum brigade can all "Agree".  *golfclap*

    "Our lives are not our own. We are bound to others, past and present. And by each crime and every kindness, we birth our future."


          Manda  |  Godzilla  |  SLC
        Sylvance
      1. ErnamErnam Posts: 2,416Member ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
        Nemutaur said:
        Strata said:

        Ernam said:
        ...

        This whole thing just seems like an excuse for people to not roleplay or communicate with other players.  If you want to attack someone, and they are ok with it, then they won't issue you.  If you want to 6v1 gank someone, and they are NOT ok with it, they shouldn't have to quit mark/PK flag to force you to be reasonable.  The whole thing comes down to people being decent and respecting other players' wishes.

        ...

        Pack your shit and get up outta here. You just failed.

        https://ada-young.appspot.com/pastebin/d2525277


        I know I've placed myself under self-imposed forum ban. But the troll is here, so this thread is on its way out the door anyway.

        Haha, that is a great snippet.


        Jinsun ganked me non-stop for weeks, until I finally learned monk combat well enough to turn the odds in my favor.  Then I killed him a bunch, and I get issued for harassment.  I never teamed him, and probably killed him about 1/4th as much as he killed me.  Additionally, even in that quote, as well as in more depth, immediately prior to it, I explained that virtually any form of in-character resolution would be fine to end the grudge, all he had to do was make some form of effort (or, as I mentioned, quit mark or keep dying).

        The entire thing was 100% reasonable, and was well within the bounds of legal and rational PK.  Seeing that quote pop up for like the 5th time out of context, trying to spin it to make it sound like jumping a mark on the clouds a few times is "griefing" is actually starting to get on my nerves a bit.

        "Our lives are not our own. We are bound to others, past and present. And by each crime and every kindness, we birth our future."


              Manda  |  Godzilla  |  SLC
            SylvanceJinsun
          1. SylvanceSylvance Posts: 1,477Member ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
            edited June 2014

            Not feeding him

            Tvistor: If that was a troll, it was masterful.
            I take my hat off to you.
          2. NemutaurNemutaur GermanyPosts: 1,068Member
            Ernam said:
            Nemutaur said:
            Strata said:

            Ernam said:
            ...

            This whole thing just seems like an excuse for people to not roleplay or communicate with other players.  If you want to attack someone, and they are ok with it, then they won't issue you.  If you want to 6v1 gank someone, and they are NOT ok with it, they shouldn't have to quit mark/PK flag to force you to be reasonable.  The whole thing comes down to people being decent and respecting other players' wishes.

            ...

            Pack your shit and get up outta here. You just failed.

            https://ada-young.appspot.com/pastebin/d2525277


            I know I've placed myself under self-imposed forum ban. But the troll is here, so this thread is on its way out the door anyway.

            Haha, that is a great snippet.


            Jinsun ganked me non-stop for weeks, until I finally learned monk combat well enough to turn the odds in my favor.  Then I killed him a bunch, and I get issued for harassment.  I never teamed him, and probably killed him about 1/4th as much as he killed me.  Additionally, even in that quote, as well as in more depth, immediately prior to it, I explained that virtually any form of in-character resolution would be fine to end the grudge, all he had to do was make some form of effort (or, as I mentioned, quit mark or keep dying).

            The entire thing was 100% reasonable, and was well within the bounds of legal and rational PK.  Seeing that quote pop up for like the 5th time out of context, trying to spin it to make it sound like jumping a mark on the clouds a few times is "griefing" is actually starting to get on my nerves a bit.

            Didn't you issue Bonko and Eari over killing you over and over while you were mark since it was harassment instead of quitting mark?

            SylvanceShirszaeErnam
          3. KlendathuKlendathu Eye of the StormPosts: 2,681Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
            Can we please not turn this thread into another "I hate @Ernam " thread? (And yes, Ernam, you're as guilty as the rest with the personal attacks)

            Tharos, the Announcer of Delos shouts, "It's near the end of the egghunt and I still haven't figured out how to pronounce Clean-dat-hoo."
            SylvanceNim
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