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PKing - Improvements

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  • RipRip Member Posts: 228 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    edited April 2014
    Interesting last posts.

    I added 7 leads this round and sent in 5 last time.  Subterfuge, has nearly DOUBLE the leads than all the other skills.  That is fantastic!  Cheers to everyone that did submit ideas and classleads!

     Get in there and endorse those leads.  It's not to late!

    @Strata,  I have some ideas for Illusion in the classleads, go endorse and make your own comments, get your ideas heard!

    (If you think GHOST sucks, that's because it was made before everything else, it needs to be updated and modernized with the NEW skills, along with many other subterfuge abilities.)

    Tell Them About It! <- They are listening...

    Edit: Missed one 'the'...arg.

    Bluef
  • StrataStrata United States of DerpMember Posts: 1,753 @ - Epic Achaean
    Antonius said:
    I think the primary intention with voyria is that you use it to prevent passive curing getting somebody out of a lock you've already secured while you finish them off, so they can't sip immunity at that point anyway.
    How can the primary intention be what you just said if the mechanic is "passive abilities have a chance of always curing voyria first".

    Afflict voyria = Flay and bite, or dstab something/voyria - which is essentially a jab. (only 1 venom towards achieving lock)
    Cure voyria = sip immunity (costs nothing)

    It's broken. The cost of adding voyria to a serpent's offense outweighs the benefit of "the possibility that passive abilities will cure the voyria first." Thus, what you just said makes no sense at all. If someone with passive curing ability gets locked, they're only going to be locked for a few seconds, regardless of voyria. So what is a serpent to do then? Kill them or just keep stabbing with voyria and spinning the RNG while looking like an idiot, smirking, and going "lol voyria. haha you can't cure out. lol voyria again! lol haha!"
    image
    RipPraxidesPayne
  • MithridatesMithridates Member Posts: 1,956 @ - Epic Achaean
    Passive curing usually works on a 12 second tick so yeah it works
    Mako
  • NimNim Member Posts: 2,015 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited April 2014
    I forget, isn't voyria one of the many venoms that can be envenomed? If so, then even if you were going to be goofy and just keep reapplying it, you could shoot at them or single-stab them for damage while doing it anyway. Not that you have to, but even if you were going to do that...
  • JovoloJovolo EnglandMember Posts: 3,119 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    the point of new-Voyria is to stop passive curing from breaking its user out of a lock, which it does when not bugged. It's not supposed to stop passive healing in the build-up to a lock.

    I don't know of any passive curing consistently faster than ten seconds, (Dagaz ticks randomly iirc, so it's possible that you might get very lucky and get an unusually fast tick) so Voyria basically gives you at minimum (10+(time it takes for Voyria to be cured after afflicting it)). It sounds like what you're asking for is a way to nullify passive healing for x amount of seconds which defeats the point of it entirely. May as well remove it from the game - which I'm actually not against at all, but that's a different discussion.
  • StrataStrata United States of DerpMember Posts: 1,753 @ - Epic Achaean
    This is all the announcement said: - All forms of passive curing will attempt to cure the VOYRIA affliction first. (from announce #4003)

    That's the information the rest of sapience is going by. We don't have access to the authoritative theory and discussion that took place regarding the matter. Nor do we have access to the results any of the tests that were undoubtedly performed by the very same experts who discussed such esoteric matters pertaining to the complexities of Achaean combat mechanics.
    image
    Bonko
  • JovoloJovolo EnglandMember Posts: 3,119 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    What's hard to understand about that? I don't get your confusion
  • SenaSena Member Posts: 3,776 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Strata said:
    This is all the announcement said: - All forms of passive curing will attempt to cure the VOYRIA affliction first. (from announce #4003)

    That's the information the rest of sapience is going by. We don't have access to the authoritative theory and discussion that took place regarding the matter. Nor do we have access to the results any of the tests that were undoubtedly performed by the very same experts who discussed such esoteric matters pertaining to the complexities of Achaean combat mechanics.
    I'm entirely uninvolved in combat and never participated in any discussion related to the change, and I knew the reason for it and impact of it right away. It's pretty straightforward.
    NemutaurAerek
  • JarrodJarrod Member, Seafaring Liason Posts: 2,914 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    What we have to go by was the problem raised that resulted in the change, and the discussions after classleads regarding the change.

    Voyria is not and was not intended to be something applied during a lock attempt to prevent passive curing. Voyria was intended to be applied when a lock was sealed to prevent passive healing from RNG-curing someone out of a lock. When you lock someone, you apply voyria, and have a minimum 10-12 seconds (depending on class and whether it ticks instantly or not) to kill the target. This is plenty of time to kill someone in a myriad of ways, from one of various insta-kills to hitting them with darkshade and dstabing voyria/whatever to just jabbing with voyria until they die. Voyria is not intended to disable passive curing, it is intended to prevent RNG-curing out of a lock.
    image
    Cascades of quicksilver light streak across the firmament as the celestial voice of Ourania intones, "Oh Jarrod..."

    WessuxNemutaur
  • StrataStrata United States of DerpMember Posts: 1,753 @ - Epic Achaean
    Thank you for clarifying what was merely implied in the original announcement. It is now understood that nobody would ever think to use voyria while working toward a lock to slow down passive curing. Doing so would be completely contrary to the implied purpose gathered from the announcement and thus anyone contemplating such an idea obviously has no imagination or extensive knowledge of how it was originally intended to function, or anything for that matter.
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    Bluef
  • MithridatesMithridates Member Posts: 1,956 @ - Epic Achaean
    I don't understand the disconnect here
  • MakariosMakarios Administrator Posts: 1,352 Achaean staff

    You're free to utilise mechanics changes however you so choose. We're not going to tell you you can do something a certain way and that way only (although there will obviously be optimal ways to use said mechanics). I'm pretty confident in the playerbases ability to think of things we overlooked during testing. If they didn't we'd not need periodic classleads.

    Just as an aside, being an amazing one v one combatant isn't necessarily what's looked for when ACC applications come in (although its only going to help your case). Objectivity and a general knowledge across class mechanics is more useful, as its generally applicable to more of the issues that the groups input is needed for. Of course, the second of those two generally comes with being a good fighter, so there's some natural intersect.

    Just to put some concerns to rest though, we're pretty big on retaining serpents unique identity. They'll not get turned into an apostate clone.

    ErnamRipNemutaur
  • DaeirDaeir AustraliaMember, Secret Squirrel Posts: 6,050 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I do want to say though, the people arguing that Serpents did not lose "much" with the pending illusion death are absolutely delusional. It's a huge loss. Can you still lock people without them? Probably, but it's a fair bit harder, or more contingent on RNG overall.

    The breadth of strategies that clever illusion use afforded are now dead and gone, presumably forever, with only a hollow shell of tactical stratagems left in their wake.

    That is a huge deal for a class which chained illusions with their core attack. It's asinine to suggest otherwise.
    :pleased::pleased:
    StrataErnam
  • StrataStrata United States of DerpMember Posts: 1,753 @ - Epic Achaean
    Daeir said:
    ...
    That is a huge deal for a class which chained illusions with their core attack. It's asinine to suggest otherwise.
    It's apostate with phase and snipe instead of a kickass Balzadeen to do things for us. It's asinine to think otherwise.
    I'd gladly sacrifice all of hypnosis for beckon. Then we'd be phasing+sniping+guardstack griefing serpostates of dooooooooom!!! mwahahahah.
    image
  • WessuxWessux ChattanoogaMember Posts: 510 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    Daeir said:

    I do want to say though, the people arguing that Serpents did not lose "much" with the pending illusion death are absolutely delusional. It's a huge loss. Can you still lock people without them? Probably, but it's a fair bit harder, or more contingent on RNG overall.

    The breadth of strategies that clever illusion use afforded are now dead and gone, presumably forever, with only a hollow shell of tactical stratagems left in their wake.

    That is a huge deal for a class which chained illusions with their core attack. It's asinine to suggest otherwise.

    You can lock without illusions. As always it comes down to timing and watching how they react to your attacks.

    Most serpents couldn't use illusions well with updates to things like svo anti illusion and other system advances.

    It's still a big lose because that was a cool skill and could be used for some neat things.
    Invest in a 9mm retirement plan.
    Jovolo
  • WessuxWessux ChattanoogaMember Posts: 510 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    edited April 2014
    Strata said:


    Daeir said:
    ...

    That is a huge deal for a class which chained illusions with their core attack. It's asinine to suggest otherwise.

    It's apostate with phase and snipe instead of a kickass Balzadeen to do things for us. It's asinine to think otherwise.
    I'd gladly sacrifice all of hypnosis for beckon. Then we'd be phasing+sniping+guardstack griefing serpostates of dooooooooom!!! mwahahahah


    If you sacrificed all of your hypnosis for beckon you would never kill anyone in 1v1. At best you could try to mana lock someone. At worst you could backstab doublestab delph. If that doesn't work go home to Ashtan, try again in 10 minutes or so.
    Invest in a 9mm retirement plan.
  • JovoloJovolo EnglandMember Posts: 3,119 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Comparing serpent to apostate just because of the loss of illusions is pretty funny. :P A more accurate comparison would be Knights with specified passive impatience/addiction/confusion/disrupt, scytherus and passive loki. I appreciate the loss of sileris illusions, but it'd be wise to wait for what the classleads bring you before the doom and gloom outlook. 
    WessuxRipAntidasAlexandre
  • DaeirDaeir AustraliaMember, Secret Squirrel Posts: 6,050 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Wessux said:
    I do want to say though, the people arguing that Serpents did not lose "much" with the pending illusion death are absolutely delusional. It's a huge loss. Can you still lock people without them? Probably, but it's a fair bit harder, or more contingent on RNG overall.

    The breadth of strategies that clever illusion use afforded are now dead and gone, presumably forever, with only a hollow shell of tactical stratagems left in their wake.

    That is a huge deal for a class which chained illusions with their core attack. It's asinine to suggest otherwise.
    You can lock without illusions. As always it comes down to timing and watching how they react to your attacks. Most serpents couldn't use illusions well with updates to things like svo anti illusion and other system advances. It's still a big lose because that was a cool skill and could be used for some neat things.
    I'm not saying that you can't lock without illusions. I am saying that the process is a lot more flat and considerably more difficult without them, subject to things like the whim of scytherus' relapsing rate and ginseng/kelp stacks rng.
    :pleased::pleased:
  • JovoloJovolo EnglandMember Posts: 3,119 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    How is that different to how it used to be with illusions?
    WessuxJhui
  • WessuxWessux ChattanoogaMember Posts: 510 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    Jovolo said:

    How is that different to how it used to be with illusions?

    ^Gets it
    Invest in a 9mm retirement plan.
  • DaeirDaeir AustraliaMember, Secret Squirrel Posts: 6,050 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I'm obviously not articulating this properly, so I'll let someone else do it.
    :pleased::pleased:
    Hasar
  • IocunIocun Member Posts: 3,505 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Strata said:
    This is all the announcement said: - All forms of passive curing will attempt to cure the VOYRIA affliction first. (from announce #4003)

    That's the information the rest of sapience is going by. We don't have access to the authoritative theory and discussion that took place regarding the matter.
    Just to mention it: the announcement isn't the only information available to the general public. There's also the classlead that led to it, which contained the sentence: "Voyria is close to the most easily cured afflictions of all, which means that this functionality would mainly be of use after a person is locked and voyria would have to be re-given any time such a healing ability fired."
  • StrataStrata United States of DerpMember Posts: 1,753 @ - Epic Achaean
    Jovolo said:
    Comparing serpent to apostate just because of the loss of illusions is pretty funny. :P A more accurate comparison would be Knights with specified passive impatience/addiction/confusion/disrupt, scytherus and passive loki. I appreciate the loss of sileris illusions, but it'd be wise to wait for what the classleads bring you before the doom and gloom outlook. 
    I'm sure you do appreciate the loss of sileris illusions. I know the theory behind it was a little too nerve-wracking for you and a simple flay/bite is much easier. Flay is about 1.5s, and a bite is... however much much faster it is now that bites have been sped up to make us feel better. They've been sped up so we can get in maybe 1 extra bite after flay? It's pretty awesome. Now when someone shields after 1 or 2 dstabs, we can waste ~1.5s flaying sileris while they heal shit, and then bite 3-4 times before sileris comes back up!

    Hehe wait a second... what am I even talking about. Screw all of this. Serpent is supposed to be an archer only. If you want 1v1... monk.
    image
  • JarrelJarrel Member Posts: 164 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Loss of illusion for serpent? Ah, great let's take away the one characteristic that brings a bit of flavour and originality and a fair test of how well a person can use the class.

    Sucks, really.

    Also too many good serpents arguing here with too many good arguments so I fear my marginal concerns will be glossed over, being a noone, now.

    Jarrel-smalljpg

    JovoloWessuxErnamBluef
  • StrataStrata United States of DerpMember Posts: 1,753 @ - Epic Achaean
    Jarrel said:
    Loss of illusion for serpent? Ah, great let's take away the one characteristic that brings a bit of flavour and originality and a fair test of how well a person can use the class.

    Sucks, really.

    Also too many good serpents arguing here with too many good arguments so I fear my marginal concerns will be glossed over, being a noone, now.
    Come back @Jarrel, we're a new class called Serpostate now. You'll love it!
    image
  • JarrelJarrel Member Posts: 164 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    has it happened already?

    Jarrel-smalljpg

  • StrataStrata United States of DerpMember Posts: 1,753 @ - Epic Achaean
    Jarrel said:
    has it happened already?
    Will keep you posted when it does. I'll message you with a list of all our new abilities... actually here let me just give it to you now so you're ready for it.

    AB SERPOSTATEFUGE
    Abilities in Serpostatefuge:
    -------------------------------------------------------------
    Rattle                     Knowledge of the coded Serpostate Lord tongue.
    Hide                       Conceal yourself from view.
    Evade                     Misleading your pursuer.
    Snipe                     The ability to sharpshoot.
    Phase                    Alter your status in space-time itself.
    Pentagrams            Sketch an infernal pentagram, in blood. <-- this one is important.
    image
  • CaladbolgCaladbolg Campbell County TNMember Posts: 1,126 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    edited April 2014
    Rip said:
    Greetings, 

      First, I started this discussion to talk about Player Killing, what it means and how to make it more enjoyable Role Playing experience and less of a OOC rant.

      Second, I am sorry, I find Hunting and Questing boring, the reason is, because when I was young here, I couldn't hunt or quest at all because I was constantly hunted and killed.  You would probably be in shock to know that I have read about 10 actual room descriptions in my entire time playing Achaea.  That's how much I had to run and survive this place.  It's in my blood, so I am not used to the lazy walk around, hunt without a care attitude ok?  If I go hunting, I am ALWAYS on guard, never feel safe, and constantly worried ANYONE is going to attack me at any moment, hence why being a Mark appeals to me.
    What's a room description?

    Antonius said:
    I think the primary intention with voyria is that you use it to prevent passive curing getting somebody out of a lock you've already secured while you finish them off, so they can't sip immunity at that point anyway.



    I thought it was for killing newbies with out a system. in all seriousness Voyria should be remade to something more useful combat wise, The only thing I can think of Voyria being useful for are possibley aeon/retard (to get them to cure it over other things) and to bypass starburst to get double kills on someone.

    Sherazad
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