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PKing - Improvements

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  • RipRip Member Posts: 228 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Try to keep this short as I can, thank you all for your comments.

    @Aepas, @Shibumi - I roll as CortexMeltdown on MWO, tried like 10 names before that too.  Place is hopping.  I think my Kill ratio is like .56 now, which I am quite please with, my first 200 drops were just, terrible.  Megamek is fun, but a little weak with play, once I got my joysticks setup is was a good time, MWO is great, Love it.

    SCREEN SCROLL and PROGRAMMING
      @Suladan, @Nakari - Yes, information goes by to fast, without color highlights, some sort of chat window, and much of the text gagged, it makes it very hard to tell what's going on, it's taken me many months to set up my stuff just to have fun on Achaea.

    Tunnelvision is a step in the right direction and I really think improvements like these lessen the blow for new ones.  But are we explaining it how to use this at all? 

    Should gagging lines even be a skill?  Could there be a server-side gag feature?

    SERVER-SIDE ALIASES and us...
      What I love about the idea of stated paragraph topic, is, they don't really require coding knowledge, if these were made to have multiple commands they would help everyone that doesn't want to learn to code.  Also, it would be easier to explain to people IG how to use them, and lessen the need for MUDLET and SVO just to get a toe into combat.

    EXPERIENCE LOSS
    @Jhui, @Florentino - What if XP loss was just tweaked to the point that regaining any lost experience would take half the time.  And maybe, just make that an option for non-Marks/non-Infamous.  The innocent if you will. And yes I agree the level at which you loss XP is drastically lower than I remember, which is nice. The idea that a PK death is stealing 900+ hours of hunting seems to be another factor that makes people upset.

    Thank you @Bluef, my randomness and brainstorming will be summed up I hope with some good ideas that lead to a better experience for new players here at Achaea and maybe even the other IRE's game.   Right now I am just letting it flow, and I really don't see why people are harassing me for it. Thank you for your comment, I feel the same way.

    Before I go over board, I am going to hit Post Comment.  Rejoice! Your next @Alexandre!

    Bluef
  • StrataStrata United States of DerpMember Posts: 1,753 @ - Epic Achaean
    I think they've already turned off experience loss in some of the other IRE's. After the introduction of server-side curing and the complete and utter destruction of several classes by leads written by the "experts" - at this point I would not be surprised if experience loss were disabled in Achaea permanently. Will it stop people from being so uptight about being on the receiving end of PK a lot? Hell no. Will they still issue for frivolous things and even lie in their issues to get other people punished - in order to "win"? Hell yes.
    image
    BluefSwadrytKaie
  • StrataStrata United States of DerpMember Posts: 1,753 @ - Epic Achaean
    Jacen said:
    I'll freely admit, xp loss is a significant part of why I'm not more active in PK than I am. PvP is an xp sink, and it just takes too damn much effort and time to earn xp just to toss it away. Some people antagonize others on the forums about their "precious textp" and I don't think that's very fair; xp gain represents a humongous investment as a player. 

    Having said all that, I'm not very convinced that the removal of xp loss would be an appropriate solution. Obviously there are players here with a lot more knowledge and experience in PvP and PvE than me, but I think xp loss is still needed as a deterrent to excessive solo raiding or hunting way beyond your level. 
    You're absolutely correct. Too bad the crybabies always win. Expect rainbows, cupcakes, and unicorns (in that order), from here on out.
    image
    Rip
  • RipRip Member Posts: 228 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Some reasons people avoid Player Killing.

    1.  Lack of teaching and knowledge of Achaean skills themselves. 
    1a.  Skills are acquired very fast for new players.
    2.  The learning curve of coding. – Basic/Advanced
    2a.  Better understanding of coding helps with Hunting and Roleplay.
    3.  Time hunting lost due to being killed is a deal breaker.
    4.  Screen spam is hard to deal with.

    Brainstorming solutions

    (1.)  My first thought, I enjoy teaching combat, perhaps there could be a new Romeo/Juliet (Caesar?) role?  This new role would be a volunteer position to help explain skills/code and answer combat questions.  Perhaps we could even have weekend classes on some distant island to help explain things to others that want to start to enjoy Player Killing.

    (1a.) New learning text/messages from tutors. New players get a lot of skills quick.  There isn’t much time to get to know them before your receiving more and more skills.  I am sure this would be too much work, but it would be cool, that instead of just the same learning text.  If it actually had simple instruction to use each skill as they acquire them.  As there seems to be a lack of teaching in the realms. (my experience from role HoN, as serpent, and my opinion, if you teach the young I congrat you!)

    (2.)  Because learning to code comes before you can enjoy Player Killing, most PKers have coding knowledge already (this is just my observation), I know most of the Shadowsnakes code for a living, and if some of our members don’t we start to teach and train them right away. 

    Solution: Set up a GOOD OOC walkthrough to help players get started.  And introduce a role model like Caesar (1.), to answer any questions about getting things up and running.  This would help new and old players alike. Perhaps there could be a Free Combat Clan?   (Maybe there already is, if so I would like to join) This clan would be Admin monitored to keep everyone in line.

    (2a.) With more coding knowledge you can control your Role Playing and Hunting much better and create fun and unique things. For instance, I have a Scroll Boy that I can summon, then depending on what weapon I am wielding, I will react to him differently.  If it’s a dirk, I slit his poor throat at the end and say something very coy.  If my bow, I will snipe him as he leaves.  Then I illusion him dying, but anyways…

    (3.)  Experience loss is needed to create a risk, there most be something to lose if there is to be something to gain.  I give these following solutions below based on listening to players of Achaea:

    Solution One: Re-experience takes half the time.  Sell 3 artefacts that increase this by 10%, 20% and 30%. So a level 3 re-experience thingy would be 80% faster to regain lost experience from your last highest point of experience.

    Solution Two: Consider at night or once an IG week (maybe a certain day), with open PK, without experience loss, instead of getting rid of it all together.  This would encourage people just to even TRY.

    Solution Three: Add another experience bracket, so you have Hunting Experience and Combat Experience. 

    Hunting Experience: Would be gained and lost only if killing denizens or if they kill you, this would determine what level you are in the game so hunting to Dragon is still fun, and there is still a risk to die from a bunch of zombies.  If a player comes and attacks you and you die from the player, you lose combat experience, if the denizen gets you, you lose hunting experience.

    Combat Experience: Would have a different perk, as you level, perhaps you would gain neat things that would make you want to level this up by Player Killing. Some examples, limit Earring use, once you are combat level 20, you can use it twice a day.  Level 40, 4 times…Veil Use, Level 1 combat rating, you get 10 minutes with a veil, level 10 you get a day, level 70, you get a full week. Just ideas, just ideas! (Hides behind @Strata)

    (4.) Screen spam has always been a major issue. With Mudlet, pretty easy to gag things, but if you don’t know how, then it’s a mystery.  

    Solution One: Server-Side Gags.  I am not sure what is possible these days, but this would be helpful for the HTML5 and mobile gaming.

    Solution Two: Teach gagging lines in Mudlet along with combat with my above ideas. (1.)

    @jacen - You would think losing XP would actually be fun because you get to hunt more?  Obliviously this is not the case.  The experience model is an old one, perhaps it could be modernized just not deleted.  I would like to hear and talk about ideas on this as well.

    CorrShirszaeBluefEthoas
  • RipRip Member Posts: 228 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
      @Strata - As players of the same game I feel we all have at least that in common, so being rude and mean to each other IG or OOC should be frowned upon.  The issue command should be only used for seriously bad form and just what to you have against cupcakes and rainbows anyways?

    I tried to get something going last year, like a Code of Conduct. 


    Again, this forum topic is to discuss PKing/PvP and how to improve it for new/old players of Achaea.

    After a week I will wrap it up and "briefly" present it to the Admin.  Fair?

    BluefEthoas
  • AntidasAntidas Member Posts: 1,208 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I won't comment on everything, but I will say that for me, xp-loss is one of the big reasons I love Achaea. Most games have little to no consequences for dying (e.g. running back to your body/small equipment durability loss) and it allows players to basically throw themselves at an obstacle repeatedly until they finally surpass it. There's no reason not to, as the penalties for death are so small that it doesn't matter. I feel like the fact that you lose some XP when you die gives death the impression of having real consequences. The amount you lose is small enough to not be a massive deterrent, while being large enough to make you want to avoid it as much as possible. I would hate to see xp-loss taken away.

    RipHalos
  • ShirszaeShirszae Caer WitrinMember Posts: 2,673 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    As much as I hate dying while hunting, I have to concur that it would just not be the same if death did not have the threat of setting you back. There's a certain excitement in hunting a dangerous mob, and a certain thrill in watching as your hp comes ever close to 0 without actually getting there.

    Probably something similar to what pkers must feel while in raids or otherwise fighting players.

    Still, to be perfectly honest, what keeps me from pk most of the time is not exp or anything like that, but the general attitude of people who while not majority, do make more noise than the majority.  

    And you won't understand the cause of your grief...

    image

    ...But you'll always follow the voices beneath.

    RipKeiTvistorBorran
  • JhuiJhui Member Posts: 1,946 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Shirszae said:
    Still, to be perfectly honest, what keeps me from pk most of the time is not exp or anything like that, but the general attitude of people who while not majority, do make more noise than the majority.  
    need to get better at ignoring shitty people and/or forums
    image
    SilasShirszae
  • StrataStrata United States of DerpMember Posts: 1,753 @ - Epic Achaean
    Rip said:
      @Strata - As players of the same game I feel we all have at least that in common, so being rude and mean to each other IG or OOC should be frowned upon.  The issue command should be only used for seriously bad form and just what to you have against cupcakes and rainbows anyways?

    I tried to get something going last year, like a Code of Conduct. 


    Again, this forum topic is to discuss PKing/PvP and how to improve it for new/old players of Achaea.

    After a week I will wrap it up and "briefly" present it to the Admin.  Fair?
    imo you're just opening up a can of worms that will probably result in more coddling of the "victims". it's a really simple concept: nothing you do is going to make PK more "enjoyable" for people who don't "enjoy" PK.
    when you take them out of their little safety bubble for more than a few seconds, they start having anxiety attacks and then this happens: setalias greet issue.

    image
    BluefRip
  • WynedereWynedere Member Posts: 305 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    While xp loss does stop quite a few people from being involved in pk, its removal will not help at all. If anything, it will remove just about all incentive for restraint. In MKO, there is no xp loss for pk death. Players -still- complain about it as much as they do here. 

    RipSynbios
  • NaahNaah Member Posts: 235 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Or y'know...
    Mephaos.
    TreySynbiosWessux
  • KafzielKafziel Member Posts: 658 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    Cooper said:
    I haven't been issued for pk in probably 5 years at least. If you're getting issued on a frequent basis you're being an asshole about it.
    There are certain people who will issue for anything though, like being chased out of Underworld and killed (yeah I forgot you're not allowed to chase anymore) after defiling a Sartan shrine.. but generally if you avoid those few exceptions you can PK issue-free.
    RipAlcinae
  • TreyTrey Member Posts: 4,316 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Kafziel said:
    Cooper said:
    I haven't been issued for pk in probably 5 years at least. If you're getting issued on a frequent basis you're being an asshole about it.
    There are certain people who will issue for anything though, like being chased out of Underworld and killed (yeah I forgot you're not allowed to chase anymore) after defiling a Sartan shrine.. but generally if you avoid those few exceptions you can PK issue-free.
    Well wouldn't that make the attack reason the defilement, rather than the dangerous plane, and thus you -could- chase them? Or was the defilement not in UW?

  • StrataStrata United States of DerpMember Posts: 1,753 @ - Epic Achaean
    Trey said:
    Kafziel said:
    Cooper said:
    I haven't been issued for pk in probably 5 years at least. If you're getting issued on a frequent basis you're being an asshole about it.
    There are certain people who will issue for anything though, like being chased out of Underworld and killed (yeah I forgot you're not allowed to chase anymore) after defiling a Sartan shrine.. but generally if you avoid those few exceptions you can PK issue-free.
    Well wouldn't that make the attack reason the defilement, rather than the dangerous plane, and thus you -could- chase them? Or was the defilement not in UW?
    Attacking someone for defiling is not within the rules unless you have some other form of cause on the person who was defiling. As far as I know, the witness system is supposed to be used in order to convict known defilers and put mark contracts out on them. Though, it is never used. Usually what happens is this: if you're just some midbie schmuck and you get involved with defiling, you are repeatedly ganked by 5+ people (and all their non-order friends) who's shrines you defiled. If you decide to get revenge on them for doing so (they've already broken the rules), YOU'RE the one who gets punished for some stupid shit like circular conflict/RP.
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    RipBluef
  • TreyTrey Member Posts: 4,316 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Well that's pretty fucking stupid. Defilement in and of itself is an aggressive action. If you're a member of the Order in question, it should be reason enough for a retaliatory action. It's the way it seems to be handled anyhow.

  • TreyTrey Member Posts: 4,316 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Strata said:
    Trey said:
    Well that's pretty fucking stupid. Defilement in and of itself is an aggressive action. If you're a member of the Order in question, it should be reason enough for a retaliatory action. It's the way it seems to be handled anyhow.
    Role-play wise (and I know many think I have no right to talk about this since the prevailing belief is that I don't RP), it makes perfect sense to attack defilers on sight and even crusade against them and murder the shit out of them.
    Defiling is the most disrespectful thing one can do to your chosen deity and your beliefs. I can't think of any consequence other than killing the defilers immediately that makes sense in that situation.
    However, I was just pointing out that the current rules, as I understand them, seem contradictory to that. It's just kind of sad that often what happens is the defiler gets both sides of the shit-stick in the form of repeated ganks followed by administrative actions after some of the order members cry foul when they "lose".
    Oh, I wasn't trying to say anything about you, just the logic flying out of the window with defilements.

  • CooperCooper Member Posts: 3,852 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    You won't lose an issue for killing someone while they are defiling if you are closely affiliated with the order, assuming no previous harassment etc.

  • StrataStrata United States of DerpMember Posts: 1,753 @ - Epic Achaean
    Cooper said:
    You won't lose an issue for killing someone while they are defiling if you are closely affiliated with the order, assuming no previous harassment etc.
    Probably not. But all the defiler has to do is call it harassment even if you killed them one time. Then you're getting punished even if the issue is dropped. The definition of harassment in Achaea has gone from "this is legit harassment like holy shit call the cops IRL harassment" to "XYZ person from an enemy faction has killed me 3 times in the last IRL week. THEY'RE HARASSING ME!!!!"
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    Bluef
  • AntoniusAntonius Member Posts: 3,925 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    If you're a member of the Order all you have to do is WITNESS SHRINE to get a writ, then you have roleplay justification to kill them along with hard coded proof that you did indeed witness it. Assuming you actually saw them defiling that shouldn't be a problem unless you walked in right as the shrine was destroyed.

    One thing that would be nice is if it didn't have such a huge balance cost attached to it.
    Anedhel
  • LorathLorath Member Posts: 14 ✭✭ - Stalwart
    Issuing for PK should be removed for all but the most extreme cases. I haven't been jumped to many times but I refuse to issue over a PK game and much rather see it handled through IC means. But then again I am an old school Mud player and prefer issuing over minor stupid issues. And the biggest issue with experience loss is the 80 range, which everyone should know by now, time for hunting vs what you can lose is just harder when compared at level 70 or 90.

    Rip
  • StrataStrata United States of DerpMember Posts: 1,753 @ - Epic Achaean
    Lorath said:
    Issuing for PK should be removed for all but the most extreme cases. I haven't been jumped to many times but I refuse to issue over a PK game and much rather see it handled through IC means. But then again I am an old school Mud player and prefer issuing over minor stupid issues. And the biggest issue with experience loss is the 80 range, which everyone should know by now, time for hunting vs what you can lose is just harder when compared at level 70 or 90.
    I think issues would be a lot better if you only got 10 words and you were stuck in divine grace until the issue is handled. If the issue gets dismissed as frivolous, the issuer gets disfavored.
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    Rip
  • MakariosMakarios Administrator Posts: 1,325 Achaean staff
    If you're not shrubbed, you've not been punished for harassment. Just to clear that up!
    StrataRipWessux
  • BluefBluef DelosMember Posts: 2,176 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Antonius said:
    If you're a member of the Order all you have to do is WITNESS SHRINE to get a writ, then you have roleplay justification to kill them along with hard coded proof that you did indeed witness it. Assuming you actually saw them defiling that shouldn't be a problem unless you walked in right as the shrine was destroyed. One thing that would be nice is if it didn't have such a huge balance cost attached to it.
    It would be also nice if the person who defiled had a way to view the writs held against them. That single message is often lost in the defiling/fighting spam. I've had several people claim to have writs, but issuing myself revealed that no one actually did. I also don't think people realize that these can be held for a certain about of time and then yielded to an order and given to a mark to handle - and when that happens the timing starts all over again. It might cut down on issuing if people realized that yes, in fact, you can be "legally" hunted for quite some time by different people if you get witnessed. 
    Rip
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