Welcome to the Achaea Forums! Please be sure to read the Forum Rules.

Heartseed redux

1234568»

Comments

  • MithridatesMithridates Posts: 1,956Member @ - Epic Achaean
    Hirst's brain melted from being so griefy. 
  • ShecksShecks Posts: 626Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited March 2014
    • JovoloJovolo 7:25AM
      Do you concede that heartseed is 100% preventable, or that you at least aren't aware of unpreventablr heartseed setups, btw? Just wondering if you still think that
    • ShecksShecks 7:16AM
      It is 100% not preventable without changing your curing approach mid combat, and that's assuming that you use the right approach for the setup the sylvan uses.

      Once they see how your priorities, it can be made 100% unblockable, unless you change your priorities, literally every few seconds.

      Since there are -maybe- 2-3 people in the game that even have the capability of doing this, not including myself, I am calling it unblockable.
    • JovoloJovolo 7:25AM
      You only have to employ a certain type of curing against Sylvan's and maintain that curing throughout your entire fight. It puts you at no overwhelming disadvantage, so why not? It's like saying freeze pound is unavoidable because you need to make yourself def caloric before you apply restoration to broken legs - well no, it just means you have to adapt your curing against specific classes.

      Can you explain how you would need to.change your priorities literally every few seconds against a Sylvan to avoid death? 

      There is only one method of curing needed to prevent heartseed regardless of what approach the Sylvan uses - just to reiterate, that is delaying a restoration application if the sylvan is on bal/eq and then manually applying if they do something like cast hailstorm or thornrend you, etcetera. You could even just wait until vinewreathe drops (it only lasts for twenty seconds, so not long) and then apply to legs:touch mending and then stand and touch shield! 

      It is this kind of intelligent combat that makes Achaea fighting so interesting; I would have thought you would agrre considering your stance against "lame" and easy Monk kills

    "Ignore the boos.  They usually come from the cheap seats."
  • ShecksShecks Posts: 626Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited March 2014
    • Shecks 7:36AM
      If that countered all setups, I'd agree, but I'm pretty confident that it doesn't.  However, like I've repeatedly stated, this isn't my area of expertise. I have heard it explained (twice, actually) by other people, who understand how heartseed works a lot better than myself.

      As for me (and the other 95% of Achaea using SVO), we'll just have to continue dying to heartseed every time we see it. I'm currently working on a setup to use it's "ignore" function to delay restoration, but it's far from simple, and I doubt that there are more than 5 people who play the game who are capable of such intricate system manipulation.  Something so, so easy to set up, should not be so incredibly complex to counter.  That was, and is, my argument with heartseed.  
    • JovoloJovolo 7:41AM
      Okay, I understand your perspective, but the fact that you use Svo and that Svo is poor vs Heartseed isn't a good argument against it. This is only my opinion, of course, so take it with a pinch of salt.

    • ShecksShecks 8:04AM
      Using SVO is a crutch, and I'm not really trying to say that heartseed is OP because SVO can't cure it.

      What I'm saying is that almost nobody's system can cure it.  I see heartseed just like enfeeble/axk, using the following simple equation:

                                                 difficulty to prevent
      How OP something is   =  ------------------------------------------
                                                    difficulty to use

      Monk is OP because leg breaks are insanely easy to set up, as they are not actually preventable at all.  Similar to rend setups, its just a matter of time, and shield-whoring/reflecting, until the setup is prepared, thus making it essentially as easy as something can possibly be, from my point of view.

      On a scale of 100, I'd put "Not dying to heartseed curing" at a 90-95.  I'd put not dying to double leg breaks at 95-98 (since the only ways to not die to without crippling serpent offense it are illusions, that might get beat by lifevision, anti-illusion, or common sense - and in some cases, pre-applying restoration.

      I'd put the difficulty of monk wins off double leg break at about 10/100, and heartseed only slightly higher, because while it takes more hits to set up, this doesn't matter thanks to slow prepping techniques, and you have illusions, ents, vineswreathe, viridian, etc. helping you, which monks don't.

      So that puts monk slow prep strategy at about 9.5 on my OP-o-meter, and Sylvan heartseed about an easy 9.  In my opinion, anything above a 3 to 5 is OP, and needs rebalanced.  I think the fact that 90% of the game dies to heartseed every time speaks for me, but the logic doesn't do to bad either.
    • ShecksShecks 8:08AM
      So what it comes down to is that neither monk or sylvan offense is actually OP, as the "prep time" is what makes it balanced.  The thing that makes both classes OP is that limb damage takes 5 minutes to cure, which means you can turtle for 5 minutes, whimsically throwing out rends/combos, and still come out winning, even though you were on the defensive for 97% of the duel.

      If limb damage / shield was fixed so that slow prepping wasn't so insanely easy and impossible to overcome (for most classes), the difficulty rating of dying to heartseed would drop dramatically, bringing it into the "not OP" range.
    Post edited by Shecks on
    "Ignore the boos.  They usually come from the cheap seats."
  • MithridatesMithridates Posts: 1,956Member @ - Epic Achaean
    WTF IS THIS
  • JacenJacen Posts: 2,266Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I'm not normally a Shecks hater, but that shit was annoying. Stop.
    image
    Jovolo
  • JovoloJovolo EnglandPosts: 3,120Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited March 2014
    Tbf, this is actually *gasp* on topic. Though I don't appreciate being only partially quoted, but I guess it wasn't too relevant in the first place.

    Eta: not that I actually get the point of you posting that here Shecks
  • ShecksShecks Posts: 626Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Because you asked for my answer in both this thread and in message, and the discussion was both the point of the thread, and my logical answer to why I don't like heartseed (actually, what I don't like is the prep for it, as you pointed out).

    @Jacen if you don't like my thread, then go back to rants and talk about cats and stuff.
    "Ignore the boos.  They usually come from the cheap seats."
  • JacenJacen Posts: 2,266Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Lol, I have no issues with the the thread or any relevent content in it, but those two posts by Shecks immediately above my post were just horrible.  A mashup of posts/messages/maybe new content with no apparent context or sequence other than that which they're presented in (Which is questionable due to non-sequential time stamps and a lack of datestamps).
    image
  • ShecksShecks Posts: 626Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited March 2014
    It was a normal, PM conversation, and was posted in ... normal order.  Are you on drugs?
    "Ignore the boos.  They usually come from the cheap seats."
    ShirszaeNemutaur
  • JovoloJovolo EnglandPosts: 3,120Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    @Shecks you said you're confident that the curing I mentioned doesn't stop all Heartseed setups. Could you provide some examples, or quote the two explanations from the people that told you so, at the very least?
  • ShecksShecks Posts: 626Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    I'll talk to some people and/or fiddle with it later and post the results. As a serpent, the concept of just not curing afflictions, especially broken legs, seems pretty damn easy to take advantage of, to say the least.
    "Ignore the boos.  They usually come from the cheap seats."
  • JovoloJovolo EnglandPosts: 3,120Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Okay. I'll wait for your explanation of the different approaches to heartseed and how a sylvan can take advantage of the curing method in a way they capitalise on before making a judgement, then.

    /Yay actual combat discussion/
  • VadimusesVadimuses Posts: 1,004Member @ - Epic Achaean
    Sounds like Heartseed degraded to a copy/pasted strat these days.
  • ShecksShecks Posts: 626Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited March 2014
    100% true.  I've yet to see anything other than prep both legs, prep torso, break both legs, heartseed, then torso.  Only way to not die to it is to not cure the leg breaks, or double tumble through the icewall they will never allow you to have.  I think that'd be a good SVO update - even though it's possible to do yourself using the 'ignore' functionality included in SVO (it's really difficult to code in all the various reasons/conditions to UN ignore leg breaks, and its just as easy for a sylvan to illusion any of those conditions to get you to apply to legs, then get guaranteed kill with heartseed.)  This is part of the answer to your question, @Jovolo - but there are other (better) heartseed setups too, but I haven't had a chance to dig into it yet.  (It's date night, enjoy the DKs, @Epiphany)

    I still stick with the: "If they have you prepped and they're not venomlocked, go back to guard stack and watch youtube videos for 5 minutes" method.
    "Ignore the boos.  They usually come from the cheap seats."
  • JovoloJovolo EnglandPosts: 3,120Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I guess I was too optimistic... that isn't an answer, Shecks. All you said is that it's difficult to code against
  • ShecksShecks Posts: 626Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited March 2014
    No, you must have misread.  You have two choices, ignoring the "see who's icewall/firelash decays first" strategy.

    1) Apply to legs
    2) Don't apply to legs

    If you cure the legs, you die to heartseed.

    If you don't cure the legs, you are are now prone, with two broken legs.  The sylvan now has as long list of options, including going for an easy damage kill, further damaging the legs, breaking arms/head, and so on.

    The first reaction to this strategy is: Well, if they do any of that, then you apply to legs.

    Wrong.  This is the dynamic response required to make it a guaranteed kill that I was referring to (at least, part of it).  All a sylvan has to do is illusion something like... hailstorm, shatter, behead, whatever, (0.6 second balance), and you if apply restoration, then you die to heartseed.  If you DON'T apply, then they know you're not going to apply, and can begin taking advantage of the fact that you're essentially permanently stuck on the ground.

    The only way to argue that this strategy will not work is to say that a Sylvan can't kill someone who's prone with a double leg break.  This is far from the truth, even with a long list of tanking artefacts.

    Illusions.  I can illusion restoration, but 1) lifevision.  2) most people don't have illusion 3) I might still actually die to heartseed (or heartseed damage).  4) even if I don't, I'm still prone and double leg broke.
    "Ignore the boos.  They usually come from the cheap seats."
  • ShecksShecks Posts: 626Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    I've had to emote to my bracers of frost to end the icewall/firelash battle a few times.
    "Ignore the boos.  They usually come from the cheap seats."
  • JovoloJovolo EnglandPosts: 3,120Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    You are allowed to tumble out of hailstorm and behead, and illusions are not a 0.6 eq for Sylvans. Closer to 2s, actually, which is enough to tumble/apply.

    You don't need to illusion a resto apply... you just apply mending instead
  • ShecksShecks Posts: 626Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited March 2014
    Tumble doesn't do anything without an icewall, and I've yet to meet a sylvan or a monk that'll fight you on an icewall.

    And yeah, illusion/fake, same difference.  I've had it work twice, I've had it fail to work far more often, even though in theory it should.
    "Ignore the boos.  They usually come from the cheap seats."
  • JovoloJovolo EnglandPosts: 3,120Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Tumble escapes real behead and real hailstorm... and you can apply to legs if they follow with a thornrend and stand up in the next room. You could really just apply to legs anyway because the combined eq of either an illusion or real hailstorm/behead + heartseed will allow you to stand and just parry torso because vinewreathe is terribly short.
  • ShecksShecks Posts: 626Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    And if you illusion heartseed?
    "Ignore the boos.  They usually come from the cheap seats."
  • JovoloJovolo EnglandPosts: 3,120Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Context? You can diagnose
    Lilian
  • LilianLilian Posts: 369Member
    edited March 2014
    I didn't mean to disagree @jovolo :( bad mouse and highlighting. (Sorry!)

    edit: Oh hey apparently I can move my choice? cool!
  • KafzielKafziel Posts: 658Member ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    edited March 2014
    Why are you prone with two broken legs when they're on equilibrium? You should have at least cured the first while they're rending you to break the second, which means you're 4 seconds from standing when you pause your applying. How are they going to damage you out in 4 seconds?
    Jovolo
  • NemutaurNemutaur GermanyPosts: 1,068Member
    Kafziel said:
    Why are you prone with two broken legs when they're on equilibrium? You should have at least cured the first while they're rending you to break the second, which means you're 4 seconds from standing when you pause your applying. How are they going to damage you out in 4 seconds?
    How have you cured the first leg break if both legs were prepped and all they need to do is rend the second limb?
  • WessuxWessux ChattanoogaPosts: 510Member ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    edited April 2014
    Heartseed is preventable.

    Edit: I just wanted to be a person and say something on the topic.
    Invest in a 9mm retirement plan.
    TvistorMako
1234568»
Sign In to Comment.