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Heartseed redux

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  • ShecksShecks Posts: 626 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited February 2014

    I wouldn't call it overpowered, I think its just that so few high tier fighters play sylvan that very few people bother to really set up the necessary curing and/or learn counter strategy.  I just came back from dormancy, but its on my list.

    edit:  I'm basing this solely on the numbers Jhui posted a few days back, and the basic setups I've read about.  I really don't have that much experience with it yet.
    "Ignore the boos.  They usually come from the cheap seats."
  • SantarSantar Posts: 2,382 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    There is no counter to a proper sylvan set up. It's a free kill for any smart Sylvan.

    image

    JhuiXithZeonKafzielJovolo
  • JhuiJhui Posts: 1,946 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Santar said:
    There is no counter to a proper sylvan set up. It's a free kill for any smart Sylvan.
    pretty accurate, other than proned telerape slowing them down.  Pretty fat chance either way.
    image
  • XithXith Posts: 2,590 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Of course several classes have a perfect kill method when prepped right. Slowlock, vivisect, bbt, locks, retardation, heartseed, and so on. This just happens to be Sylvan's.
    I like my steak like I like my Magic cards: mythic rare.
    RomKuyJovoloCooperAntidasDartegaAegothXer
  • JovoloJovolo EnglandPosts: 3,099 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Wrong, Xith.
    CooperXithSherazad
  • SeftinSeftin Posts: 923 @ - Epic Achaean
    Brb going sylvan
  • RangorRangor Posts: 2,734 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    too late, you already left us @seftin!
    image
    Tvistor
  • JovoloJovolo EnglandPosts: 3,099 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    @Quazzi why you disagree, eh?
  • JovoloJovolo EnglandPosts: 3,099 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited February 2014
    Just to clarify because I haven't played properly for a while.

    New heartseed is 11 seconds?
    How much damage does it do if cured with damaged limbs and does it scale with the amount of broken limbs?
    Can you thornrend/swing staff yet? - what's the overall balance/eq on this?

    Thanks.

    - Seems strong IF the damage is at all significant.
    - otherwise you can fake apply legs, cure broken torso + heartseed and then legs when they thornrend torso. If the damage is high, it gets more difficult
  • KafzielKafziel Posts: 653 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    Jovolo said:
    Just to clarify because I haven't played properly for a while. New heartseed is 11 seconds? How much damage does it do if cured with damaged limbs and does it scale with the amount of broken limbs? Can you thornrend/swing staff yet? - what's the overall balance/eq on this? Thanks. - Seems strong IF the damage is at all significant. - otherwise you can fake apply legs, cure broken torso + heartseed and then legs when they thornrend torso. If the damage is high, it gets more difficult
    You are:
    blind.
    deaf.
    has a partially damaged right leg.
    ablaze.
    plagued by the rapid growth of a heartseed.
    afflicted by unbearable shyness.
    bleeding for 158 health.
    sprawled on the ground.

    The remedy burns through your chest, eliminating the spreading tendrils of a virulent heartseed.
    As the seed withers, your damaged body is wracked by spikes of pain.
    You may apply another salve or balm to yourself.
    (-744h, 10.7%)

    This is all the data I have for that. Dragonform, 6967 health, one broken leg, no miniskills beside philosophy, no magic/fire resist rings (not sure what kind of damage it is).

    You can swing staff when they have broken leg, without a diadem the balance/eq seem around the same but I haven't tested extensively.
    Jovolo
  • JovoloJovolo EnglandPosts: 3,099 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    So the damage isn't great. Would anyone like to explain why death by Heartseed is completely unavoidable then?
  • KafzielKafziel Posts: 653 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    edited February 2014
    ~2s balance on swing staff targetted (tested after post).

    Each limb (including head) broken increases the damage, so 4 limbs is 4x as much as 1 limb. Doesn't scale to intelligence. Crippled doesn't count, mangled doesn't increase the damage over broken amount, just counts as broken.
  • CooperCooper Posts: 3,794 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I couldn't find the correlation between how much damage it caused and health/etc. Did 501 damage per level 2 broken limb (including head) on 5847 max health. Int didn't change the damage. Should have tested armor removal. Hmm.

  • JhuiJhui Posts: 1,946 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Jovolo said:
    So the damage isn't great. Would anyone like to explain why death by Heartseed is completely unavoidable then?
    fake apply would settle it.  otherwise just a waiting game for both sides.

    I was thinking proper setup as waiting for the resto apply, but that can be avoided for sure
    image
    JovoloKafziel
  • JovoloJovolo EnglandPosts: 3,099 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited February 2014
    So it's not really impossible to not die to. Just tedious for both sides. If anything, I'd have to say it's stacked in favour of the non-Sylvan :\ Of course how many people are really going to cure like that? Which makes it vivisect-esque in terms of "OMG Powerful".
  • ShecksShecks Posts: 626 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished

    Setups that are really, really hard to avoid dying to are ok, if they are really, really hard to set up.  I think the ease to setup vs ease to avoid ratio on heartseed is one of the highest in the combat scene right now (that I've seen, anyways).  Personally, I haven't seen the damage aspect of heartseed really matter, but that might just be because people don't bother trying to damage me out.  As far as the ratio thing goes, I think that the setup could be tweaked to make it a little harder to do, or make it a little easier to prevent.  In general, limb damage prep setups are wholly a lame excuse for combat complexity, and are all entirely too easy to setup across the board (with the exception of vivi).  I would like to see more things like Darkshade/lightwall and blademaster's bleeding insta-kil, which require actual curing skill and strategy to both use, and counter.  Not just a bunch of shielding and rend/combo/dsl/staff prepping until they essentially have fashion-whored their way to kill setup.

    As of now, when I see that a monk and/or sylvan has my limbs prepped, and don't have rebounding up, I just leave.  They basically have a fully charged death tarot, and are waiting for you to walk in so they can push their kill button and watch you die from fully cured/full health.  Since there is literally no way to stop them from slow prepping their way to this scenario, they only thing that stops people from doing so would be psychological strategy (tricking them into thinking they're about to win so they don't shield) or a sense of sportsmanship on the part of the sylvan/monk.  Since those are apparently both pretty rare, I'd say: re-read my idea for shield tattoo, since it breaks combat against prep classes (when used excessively).  Other than that, for people who love to toggle between prepping limbs and spamming shield/rebounding, just don't fight them.  The only way you can win is if they make an offensive play error.  If they don't, you are guaranteed to lose.

    "Ignore the boos.  They usually come from the cheap seats."
  • JovoloJovolo EnglandPosts: 3,099 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    People who have been fighting as a Serpent for longer than you: Iocun, Jarrel, Vaehl - Never had as much trouble with shield as the unkillable target you state it makes someone become. You might just want to rethink your strategy. Your excessive complaining about things being op since you came back and started fighting is getting annoying.

    On the limb damage point? As I just argued, Sylvan finisher is not a win button. The odds of avoiding it are stacked in favour of the victim, unless Santar has something he'd like to add in regards to 'killing anyone in the game inless than 60 seconds'.

    I don't have time to continue, but yeah.
    Nemutaur
  • ShecksShecks Posts: 626 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited February 2014

    @Jovolo : Your Silas-like inability to read any idea or thought without basing its quality on anything other than the name of the person who posted it is annoying.

    I know there are trolls, and I know there are a dozen people who instantly WTF my posts without even reading a word of it.  I don't post to win your, or their, approval, so please stop reminding me of your unphasable, permanent disapproval.  I already know you disagree with this post, so don't bother saying so, k?

    edit: Couldn't resist: You're wrong about both Jarrel and Vaehl, not that how long you've been a class means anything.  I'd really like to hear @Iocun 's take on the shield thing, though.  Also, have you considered that you just made the argument that if the allegedly 3 best serpents in the game (Vaehl...?) don't have a problem with something, that it is balanced.  You're wrong about that, and wrong that they don't have a problem with shield.  @Strata is one of the best serpent fighters in the game, ever, and his strategy against shield preppers is: Leave.

    Post edited by Shecks on
    "Ignore the boos.  They usually come from the cheap seats."
    CooperTeshaEldEchaldNim
  • JovoloJovolo EnglandPosts: 3,099 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited February 2014
    I hope you aren't implying you're a better combatant/serpent than Jarrel and Vaehl - My point was not how long any of you have been a class, but for how long any of you have PvP'd at the highest level. Nor was my argument that it is balanced because the best can work around shielding whoring - You can put a delay on snapping as well as deliver affs and illusions through shield, you know? - It was only that these people did actually manage to work around it. Therefore, your comments of it being impossible to fight against and the Serpent should just leave are evidently wrong. And sorry, but Strata is not 'one of the best ever'. That's enough epeening tho, this isn't a 'Best' thread.

    I disagree with your posts not because of who you are, but because you are wrong. I may have developed an inability of patience towards addressing your points, and for that, I'm sorry.

    Provide some points that aren't: 'I can't do it therefore it's imbalanced' and people will start to listen to you.

    @Xith - Why did you wtf my previous post? I can provide you with examples of why you were wrong if you like.
    Rakon
  • RangorRangor Posts: 2,734 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited February 2014
    I've fought Lothiac and Twil a few times now and I've yet to be killed by heartseed. 

    It has been -very- close several time, but active hindering before leg break, smart flying when possible, using shield at ciritical moments, tumbling to safety all keep me quite alive.

    It's very potent, but in no way impossible to avoid with good curing and the correct defensive actions at the critical moments.
    image
  • RangorRangor Posts: 2,734 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Now let's talk about frozen pound, and how hard that is to accomplish against someone who has the correct priorities!
    image
    Delphinus
  • JarrelJarrel Posts: 163 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited February 2014
    Shecks said:

    edit: Couldn't resist: You're wrong about both Jarrel and Vaehl, not that how long you've been a class means anything.  I'd really like to hear @Iocun 's take on the shield thing, though.  Also, have you considered that you just made the argument that if the allegedly 3 best serpents in the game (Vaehl...?) don't have a problem with something, that it is balanced.  You're wrong about that, and wrong that they don't have a problem with shield.  @Strata is one of the best serpent fighters in the game, ever, and his strategy against shield preppers is: Leave.

    I m not sure where this conversation is going, but I'll give my 2 cents about shield vs serpent.

    With most people once you figure out their priorities it is a very simple matter of getting them locked taking into account their shield on snap or whatever. Serpent is mostly timing based anyway and you're fighting systems and not REALLY people as it is quite hard to hinder a serpent unless it's built into your class general attacks (eg. occultist)

    The problem occurs when you fight someone as defensive as Tirac, who will shield every 2 dstabs, shield if you flay sileris, till it's back up, use fitness as a defense randomly (I understand you cannot do this anymore) in combination with fitness classes needing more afflictions for the complete lock (The hardest part being sticking an affliction that can be focused or herb cured). His offense is not momentum based whereas yours is, locking someone like this is possible, but generally not worth the trouble on a risk vs benefit basis. Most other people are quite easy to lock because you know when they will shield and you just have to plan in advance to have everything stuck and to have a method of delivery of the last crucial venom or affliction that bypasses shield (if necessary, not necessary in most cases).

    While I have fought Tirac a couple of times and lost everytime as a serpent, I realised that he will never fight on your terms, (will not let you build any momentum at all), like he wouldn't fight me as a monk with the ashura icon mostly because he knows there's a high chance he would lose so why should I try and fight him on his terms? Just walk away, no point 'duelling honorably' when the other player holds all the advantages and plays to those strengths because even though on the surface it looks 'honorable' it is fairly questionable as to if it really is.

    Also: Couldn't resist, but what makes you the world authority on who is or is not a good serpent, Shecks? Considering you haven't unlocked even 20% of the class' true potential.

    Jarrel-smalljpg

    JovoloJarrodDartega
  • CooperCooper Posts: 3,794 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Haven't laughed so hard in a long time, re: Shecks saying Strata is the best serpent ever.

    JovoloDartegaHasarSherazad
  • ShecksShecks Posts: 626 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    @Jarrel I have developed a few new tactics that I can't wait to punish shield whores with, but in general, even if you're a better fighter by far, shield > serpent.

    People (like Tesha) like to say things like: "Strata doesn't have any problem locking me, maybe you just suck."... but at the end of the day, a lot of high-end serpents are singing the same tune.

    If people whore shield, just walk away.  Especially if they're prepping in between shields.
    "Ignore the boos.  They usually come from the cheap seats."
    Tesha
  • DunnDunn The great Buffalo tundraPosts: 5,229 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Jarrel is the Achaean Jesus of serpents. I have a textfile of a conversation with him labelled "If I ever go serpent".

    Imu, @Jarrel bear.


    JovoloJarrodAlcinae
  • JarrodJarrod Posts: 2,914
    I still have my text file discussion with @Jarrel after I went Serpent. I still have no idea how he managed to do what he did.

    Imu come back Serpent Jesus.
    image
    Cascades of quicksilver light streak across the firmament as the celestial voice of Ourania intones, "Oh Jarrod..."

    Jovolo
  • JovoloJovolo EnglandPosts: 3,099 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Want... access... to those files. Haha.
  • DunnDunn The great Buffalo tundraPosts: 5,229 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    They'll be up as auction items next round.


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