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Alchemist combat.

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  • AduanAduan Posts: 40Member ✭✭ - Stalwart
    The Homunculus block ability starts at 25% or so and is increased by increasing fluid levels, reaching about 75% at its peak. The best moment to run from an alchemist is when they temper a Humour and the fluid levels are low.

    Tempering is on its own balance, but requires equilibrium/balance. Tempering can be followed by anything. However if followed by an educe, the duce can be followed by wracking and in between you can order the homunculus to shriek (nothing but shriek or corrupt, but corrupt lasts 30 seconds anyway).
    So when you look at it directly, the speed is based on the skill with the longest recovery, which is generally a tie between educing and wracking which are both at approximately 3.5 seconds. 
  • DjiDji Posts: 84Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Having had a few more spars and done a bit more experimentation with the class, I think my main gripe is the way the alchemists build up offence works. 

    We have to keep people in the room with us and we have to keep using temper, because without fluid we're absolutely awful and have almost no abilities. However we're not massively tanky and don't have that much hinderance (one affliction roughly ever 3.5 seconds until you can truewrack). This means that in order to survive, it's actually desirable for us to run and come back, like a Shaman or Jester might. However unlike a Shaman or Jester, once we've run our entire offence starts getting screwed and we can quickly end up back at square one.

    Ending up back at square one isn't an issue for most classes because their offence doesn't require 1 minute 30 seconds ish to build up to an acceptable level. For an alchemist you're always at a disadvantage at the start of a fight, and an increasing advantage past the 1 minute 30 seconds mark.

    It just feels wrong the whole way through, I'll be completely back footed, struggling to survive and then suddenly my opponent will drop dead for seemingly no reason (they bled out). Or I'll just die because they completely overwhelm me before I can build anything up.

    It just feels like it needs tweaking to give a more consistent level through the fight, and more things for an alchemist to do in a fight beyond waiting for fluid and bleeding to build up.
  • HasarHasar Posts: 795Member @ - Epic Achaean
    Just bribe @mizik to go alchemist and figure it from there imo

    AnedhelMizik
  • XithXith Posts: 2,601Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    They need a little bit of chasing ability. Something to prevent/cancel flight and possibly something to ignore walls, like etherwalk.
    Or order the homunc to walk past the wall and then perform some switcheroo that exchanges places with the homunculus by some flavour.

    Just a couple thoughts.

    Maybe even greatly reduce the completion of Displace if the target is without a cloak defense.
    I like my steak like I like my Magic cards: mythic rare.
    Illideus
  • AnedhelAnedhel Posts: 2,367Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Xith said:
    They need a little bit of chasing ability. Something to prevent/cancel flight and possibly something to ignore walls, like etherwalk.
    Or order the homunc to walk past the wall and then perform some switcheroo that exchanges places with the homunculus by some flavour.

    Just a couple thoughts.

    Maybe even greatly reduce the completion of Displace if the target is without a cloak defense.
    Homunculus is probably one of the best movement prevention thingies, from what I've seen. What's wrong with mountjump, too?
  • AduanAduan Posts: 40Member ✭✭ - Stalwart
    Mountjump leaves the homunculus behind.
    Achimrst
  • XithXith Posts: 2,601Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Mizik said:
    >Maybe even greatly reduce the completion of Displace if the target is without a cloak defense.
    Yeah, they can call it something zany like 'brazier' to differentiate. 

    Har har. But I meant because you start it after they start their tumble and it completes while you have balance back. Superior?
    I like my steak like I like my Magic cards: mythic rare.
  • AduanAduan Posts: 40Member ✭✭ - Stalwart
    edited January 2014
    The problem with alchemists preventing someone to run is their own balance. If someone tumbles right after the alchemist attacks, they have a very good chance to be free before the alchemist can act. Changing ether displace wouldn't do anything.

    The main issues on alchemist for as far as i can see are:
    - Homunculus attacks every 10 seconds. 
    - Wrack and Truewrack have a balance recovery over 4 seconds
    - Educing has a balance recovery of approximately 3.5 seconds

    The damage attacks of the alchemist will never outstack someones curing, unless it is bleeding. Normal damage from educe iron which is about 900 damage for 14 intelligence at that speed won't 'do' much. Even if you combine it with inundating Choleric (drain health) the damage reaches up to 1300 damage for a 4 second attack, which counts as a spike (this damage output cannot be maintained for prolonged time). The same for the mana drain.

    Speeding up the inundating/truewracking makes it impossible to eat ginger/antimony to lower fluid, making alchemists too dangerous. 

    Alchemists are stuck with a balance combination that doesn't really work for afflicting and is too slow for outright damaging. The bleeding is fairly the only option for an outright fight. I think the entire wracking principle needs to be revised before the choleric/melancholic/aurify idea could become a functional idea. At the same time, the damage might have to become more percentage based to remain effective.
  • JovoloJovolo EnglandPosts: 3,120Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Tumble takes 4 seconds to complete. Which Alchemist abilities take longer than 4 seconds of balance/equilibrium that you use in combat?

    Truewrack is actually 2.5 seconds balance, and wrack is between 1.5 and 2, and that's -without nimble-. However, you have to factor in that you can catch them off herb balance because they're eating antimony/ginger, and you can get two Humours tempered quick enough for paralysis/clumsiness or paralysis/asthma to stick an affliction almost immediately. It's already fairly impossible to keep eating antimony while being truewracked without seriously opening yourself up to a lock or severe hindering. 

    You could buy a torc of telepathy or a level 2, or level 3 dirk and begin with an effective method of hindering simultaneous to tempering, but that's a big investment for something that could be implemented through a classlead. It doesn't take too long to build up one humour to wrack paralysis and stop them from eating antimony for the next Humour to be tempered very quickly.

    OVERALL, though, it is quite lackluster and it would be nice if the balance of truewracking sped up as the opponent's fluid level increased, perhaps .1s per fluid level increase. With the base of 2.5, this results in a 1.9 with full fluid levels on the opponent. Either that, or a .1s increase for every Humour tempered, maxing out at 2.1. It would be crazy strong, but a lot more fun than dealing with the current inexplicable emphasis on bleeding for both parties imo.
    Domanic
  • AchimrstAchimrst NaturePosts: 3,608Member @@ - Legendary Achaean

    Aduan said:
    The problem with alchemists preventing someone to run is their own balance. If someone tumbles right after the alchemist attacks, they have a very good chance to be free before the alchemist can act. Changing ether displace wouldn't do anything.

    The main issues on alchemist for as far as i can see are:
    - Homunculus attacks every 10 seconds. 
    - Wrack and Truewrack have a balance recovery over 4 seconds
    - Educing has a balance recovery of approximately 3.5 seconds

    The damage attacks of the alchemist will never outstack someones curing, unless it is bleeding. Normal damage from educe iron which is about 900 damage for 14 intelligence at that speed won't 'do' much. Even if you combine it with inundating Choleric (drain health) the damage reaches up to 1300 damage for a 4 second attack, which counts as a spike (this damage output cannot be maintained for prolonged time). The same for the mana drain.

    Speeding up the inundating/truewracking makes it impossible to eat ginger/antimony to lower fluid, making alchemists too dangerous. 

    Alchemists are stuck with a balance combination that doesn't really work for afflicting and is too slow for outright damaging. The bleeding is fairly the only option for an outright fight. I think the entire wracking principle needs to be revised before the choleric/melancholic/aurify idea could become a functional idea. At the same time, the damage might have to become more percentage based to remain effective.
    Wrack is actually pretty fast if you don't educe anything.
    Xith
  • VayneVayne Rhode IslandPosts: 1,897Member
    Pretty sure iron does more than 900 too.
    image
  • HellenHellen Posts: 162Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Iron is the only ability in alchemy where it would make sense to be affected by Intelligence. I don't think anything else is affected by it. It would make it -way- too overpowered if humourism balance worked off intelligence, for example. And I rather like that, honestly. It means that everyone is coming into a mostly-even playing field, where alchemical combat is concerned.
  • SenaSena Posts: 3,821Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Iron is 500 + 8% of max health (before intelligence), magic damage I think. So with low-ish int against someone with trans constitution, 900 sounds about right.
  • RexiaRexia Posts: 62Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    The only thing I don't like about Alchemist combat is how limited it is. I wish there were some more abilities and other viable paths to getting a kill.

    Right now it's really just stack up the bleeding and don't die or let your opponent run whilst you do it.
    Hellen
  • HellenHellen Posts: 162Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Pretty much. Or Reave, though that's more unlikely. I'd love for there to be more beneficial options for Physiology, but again, balance is an issue. It would be interesting to be able to do positive things on tempered humours, though.
    Rexia
  • RexiaRexia Posts: 62Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Does anyone know what cures choleric is supposed to block? It doesn't seem to block mineral/herbal cures.
  • SenaSena Posts: 3,821Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Things like tree tattoo, focus, educe salt, bloodboil, etc.
    Rexia
  • TharvisTharvis The Land of Beer and Chocolate!Posts: 3,107Member
    Rexia said:
    Does anyone know what cures choleric is supposed to block? It doesn't seem to block mineral/herbal cures.
    that's why I flew away every single time you did that. also, homunculus block OP.
    Aurora says, "Tharvis, why are you always breaking things?!"
    Artemis says, "You are so high maintenance, Tharvis, gosh."
    Tecton says, "It's still your fault, Tharvis."

  • XithXith Posts: 2,601Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    So if choleric can block tree and stuff, they can sort of lock without paralysis? Oh gosh I can't wait for multiclass, I'm gonna be so Humourous.

    But also they should get a defense like Ethervision or something that lets them see the wrack results of random wracks/truewracks. or wait, maybe just make that a thing?
    I like my steak like I like my Magic cards: mythic rare.
    Illideus
  • VithincusVithincus Posts: 149Member ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    so how are the changes?

  • AtalkezAtalkez Posts: 4,045Member, Secret Squirrel @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I'd like to see anyone duel @Jhui‌ right now.


    You hug Aurora compassionately.
    Dalran
  • MithridatesMithridates Posts: 1,956Member @ - Epic Achaean

    I did twice. See the results on clouds. 

  • DaeirDaeir AustraliaPosts: 6,259Member, Secret Squirrel @@ - Legendary Achaean

    Alchemist is so fukken ripped at the moment, for lack of a better term. They've got like, manly man muscles now.

    Achimrst
  • AtalkezAtalkez Posts: 4,045Member, Secret Squirrel @@ - Legendary Achaean

    SVO won't eat ginger for some reason.



    You hug Aurora compassionately.
  • SeifurSeifur Posts: 64Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished

    Atalkez said:

    SVO won't eat ginger for some reason.

    Fluid level used to max out at 5 (now 10) and ginger/antimony didn't used to get rid of an entire fluid level before. So Svo gets confused.

    retired
  • KuyKuy Posts: 1,497Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    The diagnose lines are also radically different, so when you diagnose, SVO thinks your humours are fully cured.
    [2:41:24 AM] Kenway: I bet you smell like evergreen trees and you could wrestle boreal mammals but they'd rather just cuddle you
  • NemutaurNemutaur GermanyPosts: 1,068Member
    Kuy said:
    The diagnose lines are also radically different, so when you diagnose, SVO thinks your humours are fully cured.

    Serversiiiiiiiiiiiiiide! Well i am sure Vadi will get around to fixing it soon. I am working on some priority switching depending on one of their 3-4 strategies. 

  • DunnDunn The great Buffalo tundraPosts: 5,375Member, Secret Squirrel @@ - Legendary Achaean

    New alchemist is a hell of a lot of fun to use/watch used. Wish reave would be cooler, though.



    ShunsuiMelodieAtalkez
  • KuyKuy Posts: 1,497Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Nemutaur said:
    Kuy said:
    The diagnose lines are also radically different, so when you diagnose, SVO thinks your humours are fully cured.

    Serversiiiiiiiiiiiiiide! Well i am sure Vadi will get around to fixing it soon. I am working on some priority switching depending on one of their 3-4 strategies. 

    I'm not quite confident in my own abilities to switch to serverside quite yet, heh.  I'm still trying to get a solid foot on... well... everything.


    :(

    [2:41:24 AM] Kenway: I bet you smell like evergreen trees and you could wrestle boreal mammals but they'd rather just cuddle you
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